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I cannot understand why the basic skill a class assassin so is wildly perverted in the contents. Assassins fast and dexterous they do not have time to concentrate 5 hours before each attempt of whom that to knock. Assassination aprepare simply strange thing completely removing sense from a class assassin. Assassin class is already somewhat like the half-thief or the half-soldier class without special differences. I suggest to revive the former glory of a class and to remove aprepare completely. It is ridiculous... After strangle with a victim there is absolutely nothing to do.... It is possible to reduce chance of assassinate, it is possible to make affect not giving to kill once again at once, but aprepare it is general crap. It is a shame to me that playing assassin I am compelled to try make more hand to hand damage than the opponents... The Way of assassin in that quickly and effectively to kill and leave a battlefield unnoticed, instead of in running on a field swinging fists....

I like the preparation. Makes you need to think a little. You should be glad, this makes your assassin one pain in the nutts when it comes to attacking your keep, if you know how to make it an advantage for you.

- Preaching to the choir.  Outcast is a better assassin...*ducks* jk wont start the cleave debate again here.  This is where someone says the preverbial "just think and it will make sense" :)  Basically the strongest and most boring arguements for assassinate..is either assassin must be in clan for raids or re-raids.  Or the old wisdom assassinate even when it doesnt autokill still makes the fight in your favor.  This is all that is said over and over.  But it seems still the best way to assassinate with an assassin is to
     1) if shadow : aprepare somewhere, get bored of waiting for the target, find him and strangle, kidnap til you puke, dust til you puke, sting til you puke then , nightfist'm then try and latch and viperstrike til you puke...when he flees stalk rinse and repeat and after an hour or two RL you finally kill him.  see Quick and efficient killer...:)
     2) seasons are just so healthy they outlive and frusterate foes so they actually assasinate themselves.
     3) beast....your rage misses 10 times in a row and you assassinate yourself

- excuse my sarcasm but this subject has had so much effort put into by players and never gets commented on or any attention.

It would be desirable, if it is possible, to hear opinion immortals on this question. As it has been truly noticed skill cleave works just correctly - how should work, in what recently there was an opportunity to be convinced.... *Cleave* *retreat* *cleave* again (I have only 81 % of health in this moment). And now a question? What a hell? That is let assassins are prepared as fools (probably owing to the increased intelligence and wisdon {Whether much you saw minotaurs-assassins ?}, and at this time their not too refined owners of *cleave* take pleasure from normal skill.

I think the good player always it is interested in that that mud was interesting. Probably we have chance to make it more interestingly - namely - to make even essence of skills cleave and assassinate. I hope to make even in that plan to make assassinate so effective as cleave, instead of in that to make cleave same useless as assassinate.

My dear friend.

If assassinate sucks so much, delete your assassin and make a minotaur with cleave.

And see yourself if the cleave works so perfectly as you describe here.

I admit, the whole preparation thing makes it a bit
annoying. But think about this, wielding honors face
as zaltais, against player. I didnt have one successful
cleave his entire life, and it was mastered the moment
i got to rank 26.

Maybe that is just bad luck?

I have to say though, it seems like the days of insta kill
are starting to dwindle, i have to admit i was shocked the
day rayne died to PWK. i havent seen a cleave kill/ assassinate
kill in a very long time though, havent even seen a heretic use
it since.

Please read this
http://solace.i-read-you.ru/forum/index.php/topic,962.0.html

and this
http://solace.i-read-you.ru/forum/index.php/topic,1116.0.html

may be you avoid some questions.

It was discussed and implemented.

-  Well Nierth Ive read those pages..for the 10th time.  And their a year old,  this is just gonna keep coming up nothing was settled then clearly and prolly not now.  Seems Habbakuk made the changes and he seems the only that will change it further, anyone seen him? 
    As for cleave working perfectly..it does in a way.  There is no hinderance...worse case scenario ... you have a great opening attack that takes no mental or fatigue and obliterates leaving debilitating affects.  Tough life of a cleaver.  And cleave guard doesnt protect from the next obliterate...and by the way..sometimes it kills you automatically.  Im not saying it kills all the time.  Just a great skill.  So assassinate as it is now...is not comparable to cleave because cleave rocks.
   As for Zaltais not having a successful cleave?  I wouldnt say obliterating many could be called unsuccessful maybe no insta-kills but you were cleaving and you should be.  Cleave is not a problem, not worth bringing it into the same ballpark.  Its like comparing sticks to snakes (assassinate) to crimson scourge/blackwind (cleave), both kinda do the same thing..just one is a pain in the ass and not worth trying to make work and the other one is good.
    Cant find my third post of the same ideas regurgitated  for assassinate..but they were good I thought each time I posted them.  Someone mystical once said...a boy says to a man "if you know your right but an angry mob thinks your wrong...what are you really?... a man *pauses* and says to the boy "your  F%$!#D".  Something has got to be a little off if no one likes it but an immortal who isnt around.  just my opinion

assasinate with aprepare would be nice if the chances were high enough to bother.
I use it as maladicting skill. I did like 15 assassination attempts in PK with 100% skill. Succeded only once.
But its not nice right now. There are not much skills to use and most of them dont do much damage.
Even if you have high damroll. Assassins are very weak at hero.

Well, i'm going to play around and see how it does. For now i am convinced, that assassins are the weakest class. Even thieves fight better.

improve nerve, improve caltraps, improve shuriken, give ground control maledicting affects, make skills for weapons, improve tiger style

or just add riposte analogue for dodge. Like you dodge an attack and see an opening in their defenses blablabla.

I really lack hand-to-hand damage, 1-3 attacks, easy to block(no stance like bonuses), low physical damage even with my 60 dr. The only skill that scales well with damroll is python style(and not normal) ground control. For others damroll doesnt mean much(well i dont have stylish kicks). And this is bad.
On top of that i have no damage reduction, and i have hard time putting a latch or throw on my pk targets. Unreliable skills suck but i have to depend on those.

I did well at 25, but at higher ranks i am getting owned. You should really review class balance at hero ranks. Well.. if you care of it.

- all I do with assassins is make one about every third character to blow off steam.  Keep him in wyrmlings and I dont have to worry about weapons or losing gear.  And harass people at mid ranks and then when I suck at hero try a bunch of assassinates and delete.  I have had 5 assassins to hero...have one shadow now at hero.  Have made ,id say, 25 assassination attempts main purpose is just for maledictions(though effects seem negated by some stat boosting gear) and flash...(rp) damage is good though.  4 of these attempts were with foe strangled and blinded, 2 out  of those 4 sting of manticore was successful.  None of those 4 resulted in insta-kill, 2 in jaguar and 2 in viper.  The others were spread out with a couple strangles and mainly just random attempts on people in squares and 'guilds in random styles.  Only successful I ever had was with a good beast assassin against 'Wyett or Wyeth' cant remember exact(good cleric).  And that only worked cuz he let me...attempt twice.  I imagine a second attempt on the same victim has very high chances of success.  I kept a notepad to keep track.
  p.s. it is also so annoying as it cant be used on basically any decent mob...without a successful strangle. 
  Maybe if we have to keep it the way it is.  Make it so you can wait 4 hours for maximum chance of success and be able to hide in prepared room..or u can attempt mid-preparing with less success  but at least a damage bonus and maledictions.

In Kungra's life also not one successful cleave, 90% of cleave attempts were using sharp axe too.

Minkren was not even allowed to train assassinate so i can't comment on its effectiveness(though i know for a fact its maledictions are 5x better than cleaves measly random pick of -2 to str, dex, or con.) but people should agree when i say that assassins definately do not need assassinate to be a successful character. Once i gained hero and semi decent clothes i became virtually invulnerable and i never even had mockingbird, once i had great clothes i WAS invulnerable.

I like the changes to assassins. If you want to be an assassin you must be prepared, to assassinate, to go toe to toe, to reraid... all needs preparation of some sort. Basic preparation is sanc orb, protection orb. Good preparation is displacement orb, blade barrier, dragon strength and/or snake speed. With these things an assassin is invincible, whats to complain about?

You guys seem to want a super dodging damage machine with 2000+hps, which would be like 25 dex mino warrior in defensive stance with haste. If a mino warrior wants to be like that he must prepare. Why do you think an assassin should be different?

PS. I never logged alot but in the ones i have i notice that at his heighest Minkren had 1300hps, most of his life(when he had his best gear) he had only 1000, and only 900 naked. I chose toughness, blind fighting, and blinding speed as feats.

Invulnerable you say..


[T:Kirtos:bleeding wounds E:a huge lion:small wounds]

A huge lion rakes you with his claws.
A huge lion's raking claw maims you!
A huge lion's raking claw maims you!
You dodge a griffon's claw.
A huge lion blinks away and your punch misses.
A huge lion dodges your punch.
You shield block a huge lion's claw.
A huge lion's claw maims you!
You dodge a huge lion's claw.
A huge lion's claw MUTILATES you!
You dodge a huge lion's claw.
You dodge a huge lion's claw.
You dodge a huge lion's claw.
A huge lion has some small wounds. 75-89%


I had sanc and haste. (he's neutral.. protection doesnt work).
I did 2 attacks, he did 7. Yet he has innate sanc and haste. And i dont, and those arent too easy to get.
So you believe that having staves skill balances everything out? I'd trade it for a free sanc+haste anytime.

Even if so.. even if i get leet saves and i dodge most of the attacks, how do i do damage? against protection its already a problem. And against sanc+prot+blockers its just impossible.  That is of course 1 on 1. If i'm in group, i'm useful.

  - Cleave is awesome, no one is complaining about it I hope.  Cant compare the two.
- What? you shouldnt need the skill the class is named for to be effective?  go toe to toe? nothing above describes anything assassin-like.  Invulnerable?  
-  preparations? displacement orb, dragon strength, blade barrier and snake speed? basic,good heh just swing by your neighborhood trash transmuter and get water breath etc?  umm I cant think of any class with solamnic overpowers and all the preps you mentioned not being invulnerable.  A streat cleaner with solamnic superpowers and those preps would pk a normal assassin :)  What we have is a monk, not an assassin.  And minkren was decent kazo misses him...not so unbelievable invulnerable  *wink* he was a kickboxer I suppose..not an assassin.  I cant speak for the two years of bad plublicity for assassins..but I think I and some just want a competent way to assassinate someone, not overpowered just practical.  Your talking about an assassin who couldnt even do it ???????

You say 'I didnt have one successful cleave/assassination my characters entire life'

Look.. you're going to PK only one time per year.. and even this time I'm not sure you was so lucky and fast to make even attempt. What are you talking about then? Chances?? You'll never success. It's clear like a day.

PWK have the lowest chance to success if comare it with assassinate and cleave and dont affect you with all this bullsh*t like cleave and assassination do, but I'm sure there are a lot of people who dont think so  ;D  ;) Ask youself why?

And now its time to say my favourite proverb: Stop to whine and enable your brains.  >:(

Who needs pwk if you have other ways to kill?


Power.
http://solace.i-read-you.ru/forum/logs/lview2.php?log=152

in second half of log i had
Hitroll: 23  Damroll: 25.
Reflex save: 35  Will save: 33  Fortitude save: 36

>Who needs pwk if you have other ways to kill?

Nobody is talking here about another ways of PK but about success of instant killing abilities. Outcasts and fighters with cleave or assassins have a lot of anothers ways to kill too.

As for this log so I see here no sense concerning this thread. But I'll say that would be complete funny if you'd reraid (or whatever you did there) easy. I left a lot of corpses of my characters (notice: not assassins) under this ranger. Even Zerthan was kicked by only one cleric. So I see here no even logic or tendency that assassins suck. I believe they are strong, damn, I know they are strong.

But..

As any character/profession/race do.

Btw 33 will are far from enough to protect against blindness or curse. Get 50 and you will feel better.

Equipment dependant system sucks. I want to be able to fight w/o spending a lifetime on getting super puper elite eq.
Especially if i dont have +15saves, +20 damroll from my normal spelluping skills.
(berserk, warcry, bless, eldritch shield and others)

Actually ability to instant kill and overall power of the class are quite connected.
If the class is strong - there is no need for instant kill, apart from RP point.

From your point of view - with your ability and patience to get the gear you need - assassins are strong. Just like any class in proper gear. For normal people, who dont have much time for that - assassins are weak.

But some classes encounter those situation a lot more often than others.


I think its better for me to withdraw from posting on this forum...

Err Kage, for starters i said haste and sanc were basic preps, the others were 'good' preps.
If i want to get real i will collect as many of those as possible and use them all.

Raider: For Minkren, sanc and haste made him 'virtually' invulnerable. With just those i would say an invoker could have killed me, probably a clever necro like Unreals etc.

Also, Im also not saying don't use assassinate, in fact i think you should, Minkren just proves you are capable of strong assassins without it. I can only imagine how much faster my opponents would go down if i could have used assassinate if only to place the malediction...

Raider: about your log, your fighting someone who is resistant to physical damage, you probably would have done more damage with a weapon. It has been stated previously by Nuitari that chances of assassinating people in combat has been largely reduced.

And also:
A young blue dragon's claw strikes for Larien, but he isn't there.
(Translucent) (White Aura) (Blue Shield) Larien the male wild elf is here.
He was definately prepared! Although he certainly did not defeat you because he is wearing elite clothes...

<worn on finger>    a bone ring
<worn on finger>    (Glowing) a ring of linked silver dragonscales
<worn around neck>  (Glowing) a thick gold torque
<worn on torso>     scales of black underwater serpent
<worn on head>      a crown set with shark teeth
<worn on legs>      red dragonscale leggings
<worn on hands>     a set of crab-skin gauntlets
<worn on arms>      sleeves fashioned from green serpent scale
<worn as shield>    shield fashioned from the blue serpent scale
<worn on body>      (Glowing) some white cotton robes
<worn on waist>     a girdle padded with golden silk

Why do cleric need clothes against assassin?
To protect self against blindness dust? Easily curable.

Some classes are more gear dependant than others.

Phys resistance? Chislev clerics have like 15. From briar shield. Thats all.
Its just mana shield + protection evil i believe.

Weapons? No style = no dodge = lots of damage from elemental and griffon.
weapons + style = 1 attack = no damage.

I had to sacrifice my damrol for saves. Yet saves didnt help. Its annoying.

His sanc was from other warder, who left right after 1st fight.
And displacement was only in first fight ( he was feared of me, cause i killed him in 3 rounds before, since he wasnt expecting an attack, yet he could easily recall from that fight):
[log]
[T:Kirtos:small wounds E:Larien:gushing blood]
You grab Larien and throw him to the ground with stunning force!
Your throw DISMEMBERS Larien!
You take hold of Larien and perform a body twisting Python attack.
Your ground control === OBLITERATES === Larien!
Larien is convulsing on the ground. 0-14%

766/990hp 332/433m 232mv 601822tnl $699.10226 (NS)
[T:Kirtos:small wounds E:Larien:convulsing]
thr

Your punch MANGLES Larien!
Larien is DEAD!!
You hear Larien's death cry.
[/log]

You're funny. With such wishes you should move to quake-like games. All.. ALL online games depends on eq. Thats the main criminal plan of all online-games: rocks those are spending much time online. And you'll never change it. You may like it or dislike. Nobody cares be sure.


And again. Look up.
Btw not sure I understand who's here one of 'normal people' and who is not. Are you one of them?  >:(

For your information: Clerics of Chislev also have Weapons resistance which grants a random amount of resistance between 10 and 20ish at your ranks, some of the clothes also grant physical resistances. Probably also has more hps than you in the forests even though you are higher ranked.

Generally if people don't recall from fights they are losing i think it is because they can't for some rl reason, like lag. He is obviously not even using mana shield in your little snippet.

PS. If saves were not equipment dependant how could any caster ever land a spell? Also your damroll sucked even before you swapped out your equipment for saves.

Bah.. i dont like to argue with stubborn people who cant see the situation in all details and like to exaggerate.

There is difference. "you need eq to be able to fight" vs "eq helps you to fight".

His resistances or hp dont matter. I dont damage him at all through protection+mana shield. And he does damage through sanc+moderate saves and lands his maledictions. Well i was aware of assassins weakness against casters.
And I am aware of people's "PK balance is fine, you are noob, l2p" position.
And seems i cant convince anyone in anything. I am a weak loser :(

You really need some eq to be able to fight (i.e. to counter most basic ways to kill you easily). For instance, if you fight maladiction priest or outcast you have to get high enough saves. But at the moment you can get enough of them using non-limited and not-so-limited stuff.

In most cases you really need good stuff and preps as well to win hard battles, so you not only survive but kill someone. Here I mostly mean 1-vs-1 battles.

I don't say it is good or bad but that's just the way Solace game mechanics work.

Topic was about aprepare, as I can see :)

Nowadays assassinate is superb skill!! Chances to instantly kill are merely smaller than 50% (when blinded and asleep) - percentage is from my experience though.
However, it will be still nice to see assassinate improving manual (with moving in location) - yet I'm aware of clanned ass'es who will prepare as. under inner and move to outer then

p.s.

 ;D

gaga, and post of dehuchka was deleted, he dares to talk something about Kamilla :)))

-Which post?
-Be constructive.

SO Nierth is to blame fro making assassinate completely useless???

-Yes, didn't you know?
-Be constructive.

I have closely read posts and references to the last themes.... Conclusions: 1. The theme rose earlier, rose correctly... But *necessary* people ignored a problem and ignore as before? If to speak " All ok " 100 times is all does not mean that well.. If the similar theme arises again and again - all means poorly  :) We shall tell so - that was - it was much better than began and to be pleased to this there is no sense... Assassins have been plundered on full... 2. Separate thanks Kage for good understanding of a problem and searches of ways on its discussion and clearing of essence of a problem... 3. Still a pack of posts about that that it is necessary to be able to play and to be able to collect equipment... Thanks, but not on a theme.

Ок, we shall return to a problem: I think to everyone unpleasantly to die from instant kill? Truly? Perfectly - well we shall assume a variant: aprepare on a dump, good damage on assassinate and probability instant kill 3-5 %? What, really disbalance? And the new version of assassinate to rename in Smart kill and to leave for fans....

I believe, that if the reasonable compromise will be found - many players will happy to this and it is possible on new will start to participate in life Solace. Unless not in it the purpose of founders: that the world was interesting and involved new participants?

I would like to add manual for "scouting", so you can prepare room and exit it for a time.

I would like to remove instant kill ability if the victim is already fighting.

I would like to add a skill/manual to be able to assassinate even if the victim can already see you.

I would like to add a skill to shadow assassins to remove them from "where" command

I would like to add many new shurikens.

I would like to add a skill/manual to beast assassins, Unleash Fury, double amount of hand-to-hand attacks for short period of time (quarter of a tick) followed by a penalty in the form of slowness for half a tick (tiredness) (or something like this anyway) 

Very well. I am very grateful everyone who make this realms. Its very important thing. No one other mud is so interesting (for me)...
Try today to aprepare in clanhall. Getting many times hard strikes from Razlen while prepare. When I am was ready he is leave realms.... No comments.
Try to hold today Gerzelu by latch. He is fled without problems. Sadly... (Some time ago make in battle with Gerzelu 11 attempts of latch... all failed... 100% skill)
Seasons assassins still have nothing useful for first hard strike.. Why so?
What can help in this? Take a ranger in forest for example. Camouflage/Snare/Ambush - nice. Take a thief - Blackjack/Backstab - nice. Take assassin - strangle/nothing - very bad. I see much problems in that. What can I do after strangle if i not aprepared? If find something to help with it - its may be some kind of decision to stay new version of assassinate skill with many manuals(something than can make good damage after strangle... its can be without instant kill)? By the way, no one Manual has been found by me. Hmm.. Destiny...  :) Why you so greedy for manuals? Only a team players can dream about find something and share it? Alone players must be very lucky or some else like that to get a seldom manual for own class.. Oh, shurikens... Its can be first strike... (not 26 level shuriken, something more powerfull with some random affects: blind; poison; weaken; curse) Just dreaming...

*applauds*  even an acknowledging nod is progress

Hehe, but never forget that every time a skill gets changed it always works much better for your foes than yourself...

Still, beware what you wish...

- and maybe tomorrow the sun will not come up ? man you must be fun at parades and birthday parties.
Deda says "Parades are for newbies, its gonna rain anyway" :)

Deda says "I hate parades!"

Lirions last post gave me an idea that, perhaps you should not need to has a room prepared to assassinate a sleeping foe?

Groovy...

Groovy...

Should be possible anyway, but should have the lowest chances. If you were able to assassinate sleeping people without preparing, a change such as this wouldn't be needed.

Lets give them Astral eh?

Thousands!

Honestly rage of the wolverine is ineffective, not because 'you change into a wolverine' or any of the other reasons people are talking about at the moment. It is in effective because it can be parried and dodged, if it strikes twice or eight times it makes no difference against people that dodge and parry well. I think this is due to the large amount of +stat equipment available now, even people in wyrmling have enough + to str/dex that nerve and caltraps are mostly a waste of time. Which is lame cause boneshatter reduces strength by 5 points... A heretic warrior could boneshatter, bleed, primal scream, poison and cleave, a victim could end up with 5 str... how is that balanced? Before you say naw, that will never happen, Sios dropped my str(22) to 12 and my dex(17) to 10 while under effects of giant strength, haste and equipment.

Casters who have giant strength are immune to nerve, those with haste are virtually immune to caltraps etc. Assassinate provided a much needed malediction for assassins... they need the malediction back, but it doesnt have to come from assassinate...

I would trade 6 rotw attacks for only one attack which spends as much mana but cannot be blocked and check damage multipliers at any time...

While aprepared and hidden less things should force you from the shadows. Getting stuff from your pack/endure/eating/drinking, all these things should be 'prepared' with the room, Also detect hidden(which should be an automatic skill anyway. As should endure and dragonblood honestly  ;D )

Add changing fighting styles to that list

-dragon blood doesnt take you from shadows. but you have a point..I think it should be a deeper hidden as well.  As in you make sure you are hidden for 4 hours so detect hidden should not always pick it up. spy mask etc.

I know that dragonblood doesn't force you from the shadow's, i never said it did, i said that dragonblood, detect hidden and endure should be constant effects. Detect hidden should not see people in prepared rooms at all.

When you are hiding to assassinate someone you don't want anyone to see you. Sitting in the same room for half an hour or more waiting for your prey while every thief, assassin and guardian can see you makes it almost impossible.