Laws

[Quino]

An Unseen God suggested me to write down all my thoughts about current laws so check this...

Old style laws don't suffice community now. There are too much holes both for criminals and guardians.

How do you judge and punish in situations...

... When person was blinded and cannot see who attacked? Or witness is blinded too?
... When a cleric cast cloud of poison in the city and noone knows who's he?
... When a thief sets trap right behind you and laws protect him?
... When a 1st level just-made char is created for ONLY to become a witness of non-existant crime and just to frame one of players?
... When Chaos uses doppleganger to anyone and you don't know how to act when pack of witnesses tells that 'sneaky thief' blackjacked them?

Next:
- Why a 'disperse' spell is allowed to cast in town? When you are hunting a criminal who's not in your PK range and got all three guards and mount dispersed to whole city it's no a crime - it makes your task times harder.
- Can anyone kill chaos mirrors in town or necros shades?

P.S. Anyone familiar with laws are welcome to discuss.

[Rialon]

 I think attacking mirrors and shadows should be a crime. Though it will be rather hard to whitness such.
 About traps and clouds and such. I think it should be a crime also, just like summoning aggressive mobs to the city. Of course there needs to be proof of that, a whitness (not sure if the only person in the realms, who could have put it due to being the only one of the guild should be crimed without a whitness).
 And dispersing special guards in the city is definatelly a crime for it is helping a criminal in the city.
 Doppledanger- i think deduction should be used here. Meaning it will not always be possible to tell, who attacked, but in some cases it is rather obvious. For example, if there is only one entropist in the realms or in range of the attacked person.
 Then, if whitness is blinded, he will still hear the yell of the attacked person. If the attacked person does not see the attacker, then the attacker is safe from punishment, unless someone whitnesses that he was the only one near the attacked person at the moment or entered the room after the yell and saw the attacker fighting the person, who yelled about being attacked.
 About first level chars framing somebody. Well i think that nothing can be done here, except puting a rank limit on being a whitness, like 11 or something.

[Kolin]

Mirror killing should not be a crime. Guardians enjoy killing them in the city. Traps and clouds . . . no way to prove and it will be manipulated just as much if it is made a crime, as it is now.

With some intellect one can deduce if a dopple attacked or not. It is a game of wits. Police vs crooks, no?

The rank 1 witness creation is horrible and obvious ooc that IP should be reprimanded as immortals see fit. Thats all i can say on that.

My personal take on laws: The one punishment aspect has always been the biggest problem in my mind. Instead guardians should be allowed to apply detrimentations. For example, stealing -5dex for Xamount of hours. Blackjacking -3 con etc etc with variations for rank and circumstance. Death would not erase these detriments . . . . of course this is even easier abused by Guardians than the present system. But it would be nice.

[Quino]

- Traps.
I see only ONE thief in whole realms. I step out of room and he goes there. I step back and got trapped ...and still laws are on HIS side.
- Blinded victims and doppleganger.
Is there are more than one Entropist in city, it's nearly inpossible to deduce WHO exactly attacked. I'd like to ask Captain of city guard whether suspect is guilty or not.
- Witness rank limit.
It won't help as trash chars withess even with this limit. I saw a pack of hero-ranked trashes. Besides, if you have a group of three mino-fighters, ranking them up to 10th level is not a problem.
- Heretics and area spells
... like 'faerie fog' - is it prohibited to cast it upon in the same room with Heretic in the town?

- Nice idea
... is to make a board before or in the Courts with WANTED list or/and Guardians' activity. This will help tracing the most successful or lazy.

Next, Kolin, all punishment abuses MUST be reported to Immortals. Guardians need power to punish criminals and abuse shan't ever happen if some God watches them.

...We must have an opportunity to chase an attacker of outer sentinel as some...persons abuse with constant flooding him.
//To these persons - don't whine about my reasons of resting inside Courts while you attack outer sentinel. I will answer Kiri-Jolith or Habbakuk, not you.

---
I care about Justice and I ask divine help.. as I'll better release a criminal then punish an innocent.

[Kolin]

Maybe make all of the courts (royal way) outside city so you can chase a bit?

[Quino]

No, I think it's better to leave them in the city.

[Kolin]

...We must have an opportunity to chase an attacker of outer sentinel as some...persons abuse with constant flooding him.
//To these persons - don't whine about my reasons of resting inside Courts while you attack outer sentinel. I will answer Kiri-Jolith or Habbakuk, not you.

Entropy is not ALWAYS in the city you have lots of chances to hunt and slay us in forests. There is no laws against this, nor does it contradict guardian RP.

Idea to criminalize those who attack the Justice cabal is absurd. It is not against laws to attack a cabal and IT NEVER should be. You are just angered because we happen to flee into a city next door. I ran one day with Ramiel from Solamnic keep to city 5 times and they did not complain. If you want to chase us and kill us (because you seem to believe you can easilly dispatch us outside the city) go and attack the caverns. No law against that is there?

Perhaps laws should be reworked. I am not trying to be biased against justice but if attacking justice cabal becomes a crime it will ruin clan wars 100%

[Quino]

Aye, I agree that attacking outer sentinel or inner one definitely shouldn't be a crime, but!..

Guardian MUST remain in the city to minimalize crime wave. Laws are rarely broken when Guardian is in the city.
As this is my only mission, I try to stay in the city.

[Rialon]

Concerning this subject, i think some kind of guardian procedure should be implemented, like patrol of the cities every hundred game hours for example for some hours. I mean if one read the crime reports, they are mostly about Palanthas, which means that crimes in other cities are simply unnoticed, because Palanthas at least has whitnesses from time to time and Guardians stay there when they have nothing to do, whereas the less "populated" cities are totally uncontrollable. And if there is a chance of Guardian patrol arriving at any moment to a protected town, the possible criminal will think twice before attacking. Of course, that will add more troubles for the Guardians, who for example have not reached Hero and are growing. Quite hard to leave a group multiple times to go on patrol. Or stop exploring, or stop fighting a monster for some shinies. But imho that would bring more safety to the protected areas.

[Hiddukel]

*cough* I'd like to make a suggestion.

How about a Guardian Ability, "Recruit Informant"

Cast upon a mob in a city area, the mob will act much like a warders sapling tree, reporting with a tell to the Guardian if it "Hears" a wild yell from someone being attacked, robbed etc within the same city as the informant. This tell will not automatically result in a crime, just a "warning to the Guards"

This way a Guard can keep an eye on different cities.

 

[Valeria]

*cough* I'd like to make a suggestion.

How about a Guardian Ability, "Recruit Informant"

Cast upon a mob in a city area, the mob will act much like a warders sapling tree, reporting with a tell to the Guardian if it "Hears" a wild yell from someone being attacked, robbed etc within the same city as the informant. This tell will not automatically result in a crime, just a "warning to the Guards"

This way a Guard can keep an eye on different cities.

 

Actually, I think this could be the same as the calls Warders receive from certain mobs when killing is going on in forest.  If I recall, it comes across clan channel.  I think that could be very useful, then guardians get notified of activity.  Question is whether they can show up in time to do anything about it. 

[Quino]

*cough* I'd like to make a suggestion.

How about a Guardian Ability, "Recruit Informant"

Cast upon a mob in a city area, the mob will act much like a warders sapling tree, reporting with a tell to the Guardian if it "Hears" a wild yell from someone being attacked, robbed etc within the same city as the informant. This tell will not automatically result in a crime, just a "warning to the Guards"

This way a Guard can keep an eye on different cities.

As soon as players see this informant, they'll consider killing twice as if a Guardian was there.

[Quino]

Next, I suggest following situation:

...When a 100% skilled thief stands near you while you spam 'inv'. You suddenly see that something is missing and a minute ago it was at place. You cannot locate it as it's rare and expensive item but you are absolutelu sure that this thief stole it because noone else walked before you.

[shappa]

Guardians already have HUGE POWERS.

For example all those mob-guards yelling that you'r criminal.


I suggest only lowering guardian's powers and making them much harder to find reason for criming someone.

[Nierth]

shappa, oh, c'mon. Do they have so huge powers? They have powers only to punish criminals. What do they have for themselves? Shield? Stallion? Really huge! =)
One more point - reraid from Guardians - is the most easiest reraid ever. You just flee and you are in safe. Overpowered!=)

No any aid for their characters as they are. Give them ability to get stars for example (like ears for Herecy) - one star on the shoulder for one successful punishment. =)


Moreover, I think this topic is about the Laws, about how to add some interesting and useful features, not about guardians power =)

Quino, rock =)

[Rialon]

Lower Guardian's powers? What would be the point of them then? There are laws in the cities and they should be enforced harshly. Guardians have powers only against criminals, which are crimed only by laws, which in turn are being reworked to be more exact, making it harder to crime somebody for a questionable reason, if that is what you meant. And the powers, usable on non criminals are healing improved shield, mount and detect hidden. These are far from overpowers.

[Crusader]

You are trying to predict all possible situations. It's impossible. The main problem of guardians that they have no idea about time when crime was made and who was near in that time. Who enters in realms after crime time. Somehow guardians have to find time of a crime, what was the protected area, who was in that protected area than crime were commited and who enters in area after time was made. It will cut all fakes. Such information can be collected throught city guards.

[Critic]

Moral: kill all cityguards before making criminal

By the way, maybe just inform in clantalk about crime, if somebody is attacked in protected area?

[Quino]

Once more situation - kidnapping a player from protected area. Any Guardian won't be able to prove this fact as we really lack witnesses which could be in the same room with the victim.

You are trying to predict all possible situations. It's impossible. The main problem of guardians that they have no idea about time when crime was made and who was near in that time. Who enters in realms after crime time. Somehow guardians have to find time of a crime, what was the protected area, who was in that protected area than crime were commited and who enters in area after time was made. It will cut all fakes. Such information can be collected throught city guards.

I do! Note that I don't write JUDGING-HOWTO, I'm asking instead about harsh situations which cannot be solved easily. I couldn't judge anyone in the cases, mentioned above - why? I have no experience in judging such a crime. My teachers died and then I ask divine help.

2 shappa:
Free mount and shield with rare autoheals is not so mighty power.
Especially, when fighting a heretic (I'm sure, Amarand noticed that)

2 Nierth:
You are right We can use some changes to handle Laws in more subtle way.
As for stars - I mentioned before - no stats really needed! - better tattoo them on you to prevent looting fair rewards.

2 Critic:
That will produce a lot of yelling

P.S. Thanks to all for participating!

[Kolin]

I feel Guardians are not overpowered. Well, unless fighting a criminal, but i also feel that in that situation they should be overpowered.

My best contribution to revising the laws is to vary the punishments. I've said this before but execution is just too stagnant. Now, i know my idea will take a large amount of thought and time to produce but as a system it would probably be superior to the present 1 option one. I touched on my system in this topic but if anyone would like a better idea of it i can start a new topic myself.