Thief revamp

[Kage]

add downstrike on all downed foes
add second downstrike chance if thief wields dual weapon
remove loot

-This makes me think of a great idea.There is an opinion of thief being overpowered
this could aid the situation
Thief Specialization
At a designated guild where a thief can choose one of three specializations. (coders dont freak out, a pipe dream but I like to air it out, just some skill juggling)
Specializations
Larcenist, Rogue or Prowler - This is the theft focused general version of the thief close to current but some changes.
-  Lose spear skill
-  Lose several advanced spells available to memorize (sanctuary, etc)
-  Gain one or more traps.  One that blinds, one that explodes for room damage.
-  Gain malediction skills.  Bind hands, bind feet, blindfold victim and gag  (only possible on blackjacked victim failed attempts have chance to wake victim, loss of strength, dexterity, sight and speech respectively)
-  Lose shield block skill
-  Lose scroll skill
Trickster, Corsair or spy - This is the arcane infused version of thieves.
-  Keep current catalog of memorizable spells with addition of some (maledictions, perhaps minor offensive and utility)  ie. dispel magic, stoneskin (dependant on balancing)
- Lose sword, spear skill
- Gain wand skill
- Lose third attack skill
- Lose dual backstab skill
- Lose shield block skill
- Lose loot skill
- Gain trance
- Gain rudimentary spell list (invis, locate object, blindness, detect invis, word of recall) (dependant on balancing)
- Lose knife skill (dependant on balancing)
Buccaneer, Swashbuckler or Bandit - This would be the more flamboyant thief with emphasis on first strike and fencing.
- Lose memorizing spell skill
- Lose scroll skill
- Lose loot skill
- Lose pilfer skill
- Gain bash skill
- Gain fourth attack
- Lose Dual backstab skill
- Gain feint skill
- Gain improved downstrike - chance to trigger on any downed opponent from bashes, trips , lashes etc from you or other.  Chance for double strike while dual wielding
-  Lose meditation
-  Lose poison trap

- I know this stuff is crazy at first ,but kinda cool too, some good stuff hidden in there...for a long ways down the road maybe.  Specializations could be referred to as Skullduggery or Rogue crafts.  Let me know whatcha think..as I am not a thief master...as to the complete spell catalog allowed now and so forth to balance this stuff.

[Quino]

General idea is wonderful, both hands up!
Same way assassins ought to be revamped, imho

[Kage]

- Totally agree about sins too, I made an old post about that..Ill update it.
The jist was ...
Shadows stay evil only
- lose tiger style no point
- gain some dagger style or skill (manual maybe)
- some other junk
- gain specific style manual for shadows - Cobra style (enhances viper or can apply skills from viper in it ,chance to poison badly etc)
Seasonals stay good only
- lose tiger style no point
- gain some Staff style or skill (manual maybe)
- gain specific style manual for seasonals - Monkey style (defensive stance..details to be continued)
Beasts either neutral only or any alignment
- change ROW as seen before in ideas (unleash fury)
- keep tiger style add one more skill for it (rake- like lions)
- Gain specific beast style called Elder dragon (enhances dragon style with another skill etc.)

ALL assassins
-  lose wyvern style, give sweep kick to all, all kicks should be enhanced to some point without wyvern or dragon since your a martial artist..with bigger bonuses to certain styles.
- All assassin gain weapon turn skill (or change it to just called counter) triggering in any style on armed or unarmed opponent.
-  shuriken improvement (bleed, multiple throws at once, elements etc)
-  assassination (still being debated)
-  Keep mocking bird , jaguar manual but make them more accessible and useful for all assassin types.
-  add skill "Coup de grace" or "Blindside" - this skill could quiet assassination haters , if you have strangled a victim and have no aprepare set..this skill is a damaging opener only possible on strangled or sleeping victim.  Decent damage , but lags you somewhat.
-  add a skill that triggers like righteous warfare,  called "study victim" must be placed on foe first, so save based, and triggers a random free attack through their defenses randomly.

[Matthew]

Calm down, half of what you want to remove is great and working fine. Most of your changes are largely extreme... Whats wrong with wyvern style? Whats wrong with Jaguar and Mockingbird? All of these idea's seem to stem from your inability to play an assassin properly... Your imagination is out of control... ROW needs improving not replacing, tiger style is good, great even. Shuriken are being improved already. Your skill for attacking strangled people isn't needed, your victim is prone and has reduced resistances and AC and the option to wait for preps to fall, using an existing high damage attack (savage blow, nightfist, shuriken, or your best attack against a strangled foe, BASH) is effective. Its almost like you've never played an assassin.

Thief class should just be deleted and started from scratch.

[Kage]

All of these idea's seem to stem from your inability to play an assassin properly... Your imagination is out of control...

- I play assassins and enjoy them...I am decent with them I think ...I mean I never had an "invulnerable" one like you did or anything but I do ok  So personal with your sins,  settle down a bit ur hurting feelings here. 
    These ideas are unfinished and are to be taken as singular  or raw concepts to be alterred for balance not as a complete or in anyway perfect reconstruction.  That being said... This was a response to a shared opinion that assassins need revamping to which you have agreed several times about.  So disagree is fine..with some suggestions is better.
      I just think that the skills of wyvern style should be free and not isolated to this style as they are not overly powerful.  Sweep kick and weapon turn given for free is in no way earth shattering as they could help balance the class.  Seasonals use this style for damage I know...so this can be replaced with the new style suggested with staff.  Beasts imho use wyvern just to hide,  so this can be passed on to tiger as it makes more sense as a tiger can hide in jungles (bengals, pumas etc).  It also gives stronger kicks with routines...I stated this should be accessible to all stances to some degree with dragon being best as it is and lessening stance to stance.
     Jaguar style is great to be found by shadows, and to a lesser degree seasonals and to almost no aid beasts.  Again this would be improved if most skills stated above from wyvern were accessible but as is now perhaps could be helped with ability for kick routines or added skill to style. 
     Mockingbird is fine...if you just wanna sit in it and dodge...could use one skill or accessible skill set from other styles and or wyvern.  Again usefulness is best for beasts. then seasonal...and finally least to shadows.  Should be a style that all would find great to use or a specific one for each wayfollow similiar to that their are individual manuals for all types of alteration transmuters.
      Skill for strangled foes..may indeed suck..but I try to cater to everyone.

[Matthew]

I made suggestions.... think about what your writing. You want to take a defensive style and give it kick routines... thats insane. What did you think mocking bird should do? It is the most defensive style, you don't just change to it and dodge. You nerve, use caltraps and dusts from its safety, throw until you are able to use a stronger form to finish your opponent or if a beast assassin ROW from its safety. It is extremely useful to all assassins. Jaguar is useful to all assassins too including beasts, though i am reluctant to share this, honestly i think it is the least useful for shadows... Kick routines are one of an assassins most powerful skills and should not be available to all styles. That is a crazy idea, your talking pyphon hold and then 3x obliterate your opponent. No way. Also weapon turning is quite powerful, its power is dependent on your opponents ability to deal damage, a beast assassin with free weapon turn in dragon style would be insane. Every suggestion you make is trying to make each style an all-rounder which is crazy. They are suppose to have strengths and weaknesses.

[Kage]

- Not necessarily kick routines for all stances...but as it is now a kick from tiger or python, viper stance is the same damage as a cleric or thief's kick, this makes no sense.  You are a martial artist your kick should always be better then any other class.  Also assassins only get 3rd attack..should be given chance for an additonal each round...a knee, elbow or kick, weak but steady damage like shield of faith trigger frequency. 

Also weapon turning is quite powerful, its power is dependent on your opponents ability to deal damage, a beast assassin with free weapon turn in dragon style would be insane

   -  Wyvern style is the second most offensive stance(not counting jaguar which is debateable) and you can weapon turn in it so its not so insane. Reduce weapon turn damage return and frequency if its necessary for balancing or even make it stance dependant but not just wyvern.  Divide styles into offensive and defensive and make it only useable in defensives maybe...but this is a general skill of an assassin imho not a wyvern. 

Jaguar is useful to all assassins too including beasts, though i am reluctant to share this

-  Savage blow is a good skill and I imagine you speak of the urban legend that this is best for assassination.  I just think it should be tweaked a bit for effectiveness for all wayfollows.  And It seems Mockingbird style now "is" just to dodge ... which is fine, tank and let loose some actions safely.  Would it be so crazy to add a skill to mockingbird? (even jaguar gives savage blow). Would be nice to add some versatility to it...since using this stance  to place near useless maledictions (besides blindness) or instead of getting hurt and missing with RoW now with mockingbird you can dodge and miss with RoW.  But I already stated this stance is good for beasts since they lack the defense.

[Quino]

Tiger style makes no use to shadows and seasons since they have other styles with damaging/crippling/holding skills

[Matthew]

More nonsense! My reference to Jaguar style has nothing to do with assassinate. Cleric's and thief's kick is less damage. Nerfed weapon turning would become useless, its not that great. Im not positive atm but i think the damage returned is equal to 2/3rds the damage you would take. As i said it sounds like you want to take defensive styles and give them offensive styles abilities.

PS. If you want to kick harder, you can.

[Kage]

Matthew says...

Also weapon turning is quite powerful

weapon turning would become useless, its not that great

-  Ok now I just have to say...your not making any sense...your just being difficult. 

Cleric's and thief's kick is less damage.

-  negligible difference if any in python, tiger, viper.

p.s. If I was a shadow assassin with umberhulk claws, frenzy, dragon strength and kiri joliths boots of justice I still wouldnt kick in tiger, python or viper style...Id just sell them and my soul for a weaponturn because they are  worthless to shadows.

[Matthew]

How has my statement confused you? If you nerfed it, it would be useless. Its not so great that nerfing would be useful to anyone. It can be powerful yeah, mino attacking you with flaming swords will regret it. I had alot of fun against some KoT outcast with kaz's axe. Against a dagger spec'd heretic it was not so much fun... Not so much if it was nerfed. Not so much if you are blinded or you are weak. Not so much if he is bashing you into the ground. etc etc etc. If you are shadow assassin you are a high dex race, weapon turning is not good for you.

[deda]

Weapon turn is no good for any high dex race since it depends on strength and high dex races have average(at best) strength value...

[Kage]

- right...and if your not a dex based assassin...your no good either.  So in conculsion weapon turn should be more useful and accessible for an assassin..then you can remove shield block with less crying.

[deda]

Shield block from assassins or thieves? Btw, Kage I don't know why you like weapon turn so much... You can use it in wyvern only and wyvern has a bad side that it's useful for next to nothing but hide in the forest... Sweep kick not being enhanced by damage multipliers and not usable against flying opponents... Kicks in wyvern do same amount of damage as in dragon, claws or no claws and dragon has the punch which is what makes beasts somewhat playable... That and the tigerclaw!

[Kage]

- I hate weapon turn...thats why I want to change it to work in all styles.  Wouldnt make them overpowered if they lose shield block like they should.  Agree on sweep"kick"...doesnt even allow follow thru.  Should hit all engaged with you like whirl too.  TigerClaw is nice...still need another tiger style skill..and take it away from seasons and shadows since its useless to them.