New Thief changes

[Kage]

- Alright this is quite the hot topic.  Tested some things out...Some known losses to spellbook include sanctuary, blink, displacement, enlarge, haste, curse and blind.  I did not have an extensive offensive spellbook but please post some offensive spell losses you notice. 
     Losing sanctuary, displacement, curse and blink were necessary I believe as they are either, far too advanced spells for a thief to comprehend or just dont make sense.  Besides this "advanced class" ,not to be chosen by newbies, should have players who know where these scrolls and potions or suitable replacements are.  Coulda left them haste as it is appropriate..but again potions are easily attained. The spell book, as moon_face stated and I agree with, of a thief should be cantrip like spells and incantations of a novice apprentice at best.  Mainly consisting of Utility spells to enhance a thief's abilities.  This spell list in my opinion could even be cut more depending on some other thief changes as a whole.
    Steal and loot changes are already being worked on it seems.  Im sure a more realistic cool down will be implemented.  Their does however need to be a penalty for failed attempts in my opinion...perhaps this is were the long cool down time can be implemented on a failed steal or loot attempt as well as a longer lag for being caught.  As it was before their was little to worry about when spamming steal and loot. 
     Envenom is now changed to last longer.  This is not overpowered I believe its underpowered a bit still as the poison you create still seems weaker then from the easy to get iron dagger coated in spider's venom.  I believe it should be a total different affect from poison...
     Downstrike changed to be more effective and if any attempt it will find it is most definitely has.  This will make this skill more desireable to use for certain.
     Gained bash skill, this is an odd gain but if an assassin can do it then I suppose a thief could.  This seemed a practical fix to help downstrike trigger as it would still rarely be triggered by trips lack of universal function.  However, It has been stated by kiri that this will change to a thief specific version that will make more sense. 
     You can groan ..but here is a couple more ideas to level out the thief class further.
- Remove bash..and replace with skill equivalent "hamstring" , "sucker punch" or "kneecap" just something to the effect of a skill that brings someone down in a sneaky way .
- Remove shield block.  makes no sense for a sneaky thief to lug a large shield around.
- Lower steal cooldown. 
- Increase loot cooldown.  This is too easy and efficient to pull off, some restriction is needed.
- Change escape to an almost direct opposite of parting blow (lower success then flee of course and lags you as well) instead the thief damages or lags the foe before "he" flees to aid his escape..they should be slippery.
- Possible further loss of spells from spell list. *ducks*
- better yet lose memorize spell skill and just put some spells as manuals like other classes.
- Make envenom have more potential for power with shorter duration on blade (Perhaps even make placement needed to be administered through backstab or knife) and requires long coat time, large mana use and long cooldown time.  This will add a strategic element to a thief's life as the poison could be very powerful but now harder to place on foe.
- Add one or more traps to thief.  Room damage (fire bomb, acid bomb) or perhaps Smoke room where only those with detect hidden can see.
- Any failed steal-like skill attempted lags theif considerably.
- With loss of blind spell...make possible to blindfold only a blackjacked victim. for short blind effect
- Add skill Urban awareness -  this skill could add slight chance to dodge and parry in city or civilizied areas (gray), give detect invis, and perhaps some armor or just flat out give a chane for random block, not totally unlike a ranger in barkskin.  With loss of shield block this could help the possible balance issues. 
- Possible make thieves steal effect based on his own reflex saves vs the victims more like a spell roll...so a naked thief will make a bad thief.
- Give thief true D&D evasion like skill.  Possible chance to totally avoid or reduce the effect of targetted  spells. (this has possible herecy overpower potential though)

....The suggestions are to stray away from the spellbook dependant thief.  So the thief's life goal isnt always a full spellbook...and that his life isnt over and deleted when the book is sacrificed.  Add some ideas to help balance the new thief we have now.  I agree that a thief should not mirror an assassin...but he also shouldnt mirror a mage either.

[zondra]

That is all great. anything to stop a naked thief just stealing my weapons and i see them on something esle the next day would be fine by me....but i say forget all this and bring bards back! that is what we should be talking about. i know i've been gone for a long time, but i miss them,

[Matthew]

Why change escape? Escape is win.

I wonder what is your motive behind improving envenom, theres like 2 good daggers that can be envenomed.

Traps are win.

These are or could be good idea's but they make a thief less dependent on others to 'kill' opponents, as it is all a thief needs is a friend and circle stab, but without that friend no circle stabs. They shouldn't be a class that can kill alone without great preparations. Thief's life is about shadows, pockets, escape and traps.

Along those lines a good skills for a thief would be one of luck where he skillfully avoids what would be killing blows and escapes. D&D has one but i forget what its called... Is it Improved Evasion?

[Kage]

-  Nah but similiar..improved evasion is if you fail your save against a spell you only take half damage from spell. Where as reg. evasion is successful roll against spell you take half and fail you take full.  Your talking about special thief feats from D&D uncanny dodge, slippery mind, opportunist, and skill mastery....that one your talking about is Defensive roll where if a potentially lethal blow is made against a thief he has a chance to roll and if successful roll is made takes half damage from any form of attack. 
      Defensive roll has potential to be useful...maybe when a thief is down to 5% health it triggers this skill and has chance to take half damage in this critical state.  Other then that just trying to come up with some hit and run skills.

I wonder what is your motive behind improving envenom, theres like 2 good daggers that can be envenomed.

- what did you mean by this?  you think envenom is overpowered or not ?

[Matthew]

Actually i was thinking more of complete escape. Theres a spell clerics get, guardian angel or something, it fires at 1% health or something heals you for 100hps and stuff. I was thinking more of a skill that fires at 1% health, making you vanish(dim door) and 'escape'.

[deda]

And how would a thief master this skill? It's like the knight skill that triggers only when a knight dies and gives uberbonuses to his/her groupmates... It's ludicruous!

Maybe give them stance? They are sorta fighting class after all...

[Kage]

- wouldnt have to...like fortitude spring from seasonals..works with 75% but maybe if mastered triggers earlier.   A stance is possible but not like a fighters..maybe one that gives chance for lucky strike...lose of much defense..and one that gives a dagger crossblock..lose an attack per round.

[Kage]

- Another idea...give theives critical hit feat or weapon specialization dagger as a choice

[Matthew]

You mean weapon focus

[Kage]

- Yeah that... sorry had D&D manual on the brain.  Weapon focus just typically adds to hit roll and weapon specialization for damage roll in NWN.  Forget its different here...I never take it. 

Here are some of raiders old ideas too some are relevant now
thieves:
- need more combat specific skills, sneaky attacks and stuff
- add cooldown on 'loot' - flee;loot sucks
- add skills to use with other weapons, not just daggers, so thieves will have any use other than stealing.
- sleeping disarm after blackjack
- stronger and different poisons (might be to assassins)
- old gag skill (to prevent yells)
- dnd style sneak attack - if thief is not tanking - chance for critical hits
- improve traps. Some ideas: fatigue trap, sleeping trap, immobilizing trap, exploding trap
- 'non detection' manual, like improved hide

[Kage]

I wonder what is your motive behind improving envenom, theres like 2 good daggers that can be envenomed.

- Brings up another point...whats the deal with limiting envenomable daggers?  As it is crackling, roaring etc. daggers wont even take the venom.  I understand that in practice it would be hard to accomplish this ..but for the sake of uselfulness perhaps allow it?  As it is now...I still believe the best way to poison someone is just grab that common dagger from spider cave..which holds some deadlier poison.  It will mutilate while thieves scratches.

[Kage]

- some other ideas
   1) add skill ambidexterity (either free weapon mastery but just for daggers or allow dagger skills with dagger in offhand or add extra attack from offhand)
   2) remove memorize spell skill from thieves.  (maybe some choice spells put in manuals for permanent learning but nothing world shattering)
   3) Add new thief manuals or skills to compensate
      - add manuals from d&d specialized rogue list
      - slippery mind (chance to resist mind affecting spells + will saves)
      - crippling strike (malediction, str and/or dr reduction)
      - opportunist (d&d hardcore ruleset of this is odd to implement make it a skill that evades or counters first strike on thief)     
      -  defensive roll (autoescape fatal blow, large cooldown obviously)
    4) remove bash from thief, give d&d knockdown skill
    5) need some type off buff ie. stance or skill effect ...without spells rogues affect list is basically  Sneak and detect hidden
     
   

[Matthew]

If people dislike the cooldowns placed on loot and steal etc, could change them so you must be wielding no weapons for best chance, one weapon for less chance, both nearly impossible to steal. Kind of makes sense..how can i stick my hand in someones pocket quickly if i have a dagger in my hand...