Rider versus a blackjacked mount

[khiren]

How is it that a rider who falls off a mount can immediately cast spells and perform actions right after hitting the ground?

You’d expect a fall from a horse to cause not just moderate damage but also debuffs (broken arm, leg, hip fracture, concussion, ribs, etc).

Look at Christopher Reeve; tragically, he couldn’t move after his fall.

Yet here, the rider carries on as if nothing happened. No damage, no lag.

How about adding fall damage along with a bit of random lag (1–3 seconds), scaled by the type of fall, the rider’s weight, type of terrain, and the mount’s height?

As a thief, you are risking a lot when attempting to dismount a rider, especially this one...

<886/886hp 391/391mana 300/300mv 9965tnl | EW>
You step out of the shadows.
hide
You whack a warhorse over the head with a heavy looking sack. Ouch.
A warhorse collapses, sending Kerr tumbling to the ground.
Kerr yells, 'Help! Pimwick has just blackjacked my mount!'
Kerr is in perfect condition.

<886/886hp 391/391mana 300/300mv 9965tnl | EW>
< T: Pimwick TC: perfect condition   E: Kerr EC: perfect condition >
< >

Kerr concentrates for a moment of prayer.
Kerr's fingers flare with brilliant blue light!
You feel unclean.
You trample around loudly again.
Kerr shield blocks your shocking bite.
Kerr shield blocks your shocking bite.
Kerr is in perfect condition.

[Lelik]

Christopher Reeve didn’t have fly spell.

[khiren]

Christopher Reeve didn’t have fly spell.

Sure, he didn’t, I only mentioned him as an example to show how devastating a fall from a mount can be.

Nowhere in the description does it state that fly negates or cushions fall damage, especially from an unexpected dismount or knockdown.

 Keywords: 'Fly'
-----------------

   Syntax: cast fly <person>

   When successfully cast on a person, that person will rise off the ground.

   If you have this spell, you can control your flight, so instead of spending
   movement points you spend a bit of mana when moving, and can move faster.
   If you have wings, you spend much less movement points than you normally would.

   Otherwise, it's an offensive debuff with a short duration, rendering the victim
   unable to flee and dodge. They can choose to wait it out or land immediately,
   lagging themselves.

   To cancel the effects of this spell in any case, use LAND command.

   Also, you may travel through flight area, if you have any fly form, or any pet
   such as dragon or griffon. Use command FLY to fly. In the air, use WHERE to see
   who's downwards, LAND or DOWN for landing.

A fall from a mount should still have real consequences.

Otherwise, it makes the whole risk of dismounting feel pointless.

Right now, the rider pops back up like nothing happened.

There’s an old movie, The Warlock (1989); not sure if you’ve seen it, where the warlock gets hit by a harpoon-like weapon and loses his ability to stay aloft. He manages to soften the impact of the fall, but he definitely isn’t casting spells right after hitting the ground.

https://youtu.be/-rTLgMHH3Uc?t=63

So, to play alone, if a character has a spell fly active, it should at least help lessen the fall damage, not negate it, nor have any influence over the lag.

[Ridgeway]

This is easy to address. You can't change the saves on the mount. However, you can change the saves on a player character. You are supposed to Blackjack the player not the mount. If you try and take shortcuts, you should expect repercussions. If you can't Blackjack the player because of the height difference, get a mount to even it out.
What you shouldn't t expect is the game to completely change a long lasting mechanic to help you with your current issue. Every player before you has dealt with this issue, you can overcome as well.

[khiren]

This is easy to address. You can't change the saves on the mount. However, you can change the saves on a player character. You are supposed to Blackjack the player not the mount. If you try and take shortcuts, you should expect repercussions. If you can't Blackjack the player because of the height difference, get a mount to even it out.
What you shouldn't t expect is the game to completely change a long lasting mechanic to help you with your current issue. Every player before you has dealt with this issue, you can overcome as well.

If something has been broken for ages, that doesn’t mean it should stay broken; it just means it’s overdue for fixing.

Everything you wrote ignores the core issue: a thief’s livelihood depends on remaining undetected. Suggesting that a thief should “just Blackjack the rider” or “get a mount” undermines the entire premise of the class. The same goes for assassins. Stealth-based gameplay isn’t about brute-forcing mechanics or evening out mount heights; it’s about precision, risk, and timing.

Right now, dismounting someone carries no meaningful consequence for the rider, which makes the risk disproportionate to the reward. That’s not good design; it’s just a loophole that’s been left unaddressed for too long.

[Lelik]

to help you with your current issue.

That’s the main point! No need to talk him out of it.

[Ridgeway]

Not trying to talk him out of his idea. Just trying to convey that this game doesn't change much. So don't expect it.
Ive said for years the game should have skill based PvP, not prep and gear based. However, 20+ years later it's still the same. Go get preps...(Sanc, Harden Skin, Haste, Armor, Shield, Protection Good/Evil, Frenzy, anything at all) then go jump on someone who doesn't know it's coming, isn't ready for it, and has no chance to fight you off, and kill them. After killing them, act as if you have accomplished something amazing. Also, if after all that you for some reason can't kill the person, go find someone else to help you, so it is 2v1, like those two Druid bitches that are currently in the realms. This is considered skill to the playerbase. Has been this way for 20+ years.

This has been the game for as long as I remember. It doesn't and won't change. It will always be who has the better gear, buffs, and knowledge to go find them. So adapt or move on.

Point being, they aren't going to change how Blackjack works on a mount most likely. Maybe, but I doubt it.

[rexbu]

It's not true that game doesnt change, Sirrion changed it alot. Some examples:
- axe spec totally revamped
- terrain and moves changed from the core
- flying mechanics changed
- alteration mages lost sanc gained mana shields
- draconians divided to subraces with different charateristics
- shield spec introduced
- how parry and shield block work revamped

and so on ......I could go on

As for the problem itself, Khiren is right, mounts should be balanced as buying a mount currently will put many skills of some classes out of order.
Thief cannot blackjack, dirt kick, can mount but then cannot hide. Guess what, mage can be invis all the time without issues (who is stealthy here?)
Assassin cannot assassinate, strangle, dirt kick etc.
Ranger cannot ambush, dirt kick etc.

So what do classes lose when mounted? Fighters lose stance but gain mounted crit and defenses. Mages/clerics dont lose anything! They only gain.

So asking for a little balance when someone is dismounted is NOT too much. Its totally OK if someone falls from horse to take damage, have lag or lose concentration.

[khiren]

Not trying to talk him out of his idea. Just trying to convey that this game doesn't change much. So don't expect it.
Ive said for years the game should have skill based PvP, not prep and gear based. However, 20+ years later it's still the same. Go get preps...(Sanc, Harden Skin, Haste, Armor, Shield, Protection Good/Evil, Frenzy, anything at all) then go jump on someone who doesn't know it's coming, isn't ready for it, and has no chance to fight you off, and kill them. After killing them, act as if you have accomplished something amazing. Also, if after all that you for some reason can't kill the person, go find someone else to help you, so it is 2v1, like those two Druid bitches that are currently in the realms. This is considered skill to the playerbase. Has been this way for 20+ years.

This has been the game for as long as I remember. It doesn't and won't change. It will always be who has the better gear, buffs, and knowledge to go find them. So adapt or move on.

Point being, they aren't going to change how Blackjack works on a mount most likely. Maybe, but I doubt it.

As Rexbu mentioned, the game has undergone significant changes since its return. There’s also another thread where we’ve been discussing needed improvements for thieves, and Sirrion has said he’ll review it at some point. Thanks, @Sirrion, for working on making Solace better and keeping the lights up.

Besides, I’m not expecting the whole game to suddenly change its foundation overnight, nor do I think Blackjack on mounts is the only issue. What I’m saying is that when something creates a lopsided risk/reward dynamic like dismounting a rider with no actual consequence, then it’s worth at least acknowledging as a design flaw.

Sure, the game has been prep-and-gear-based for decades, but that doesn’t mean smaller adjustments can’t be made to improve balance. Nobody’s asking for a total overhaul, just consistency. If falling off a mount means nothing, then it’s essentially wasted mechanics. If it at least carried a penalty lag, partial damage, or something similar, then it would add depth and make dismounting meaningful instead of merely cosmetic.

That’s not about turning the whole system upside down; it’s about making sure core class abilities like stealth, ambush, and dismounting don’t feel hollow.

[khiren]

Christopher Reeve didn’t have fly spell.

We discussed this internally yesterday. How could a rider possibly stay mounted while flying? The two should be mutually exclusive: you either ride or you fly around.

Plus, if someone is flying around (above the area) beyond the reach, how would you bring him/her down? Currently, there is no mechanism for this. Not to mention the consequences of being pulled down as a fly race like Sivak Draconian, or from the flying mount or transmuter mage(eagle or hawk form).

[khiren]

Also, if after all that you for some reason can't kill the person, go find someone else to help you, so it is 2v1, like those two Druid bitches that are currently in the realms. This is considered skill to the playerbase. Has been this way for 20+ years.

What can I say, man? A few days ago, I attacked a group in Maus and killed one, but the other was out of range. I didn’t get any loot, as that's not how I roll (out of the clan). The one who was out of range quickly switched to another character. Moments later, a druid, wild elf, showed up, and we fought in front of the Maus; he ended up fleeing. Shortly after, a wild elf ranger appeared, and we fought to a stalemate. Then the druid came back, this time with a beast assassin. What started as one versus two quickly became one versus three. By some luck, I was able to disengage and retreat. Unfortunately, I lost the log; otherwise, I'd post it.

Regarding pesky gnome druids, watch out, where there were two, now there are three 

[Lelik]

Omg, khiren, you’re such a bullsh*ter!

[khiren]

Omg, khiren, you’re such a bullsh*ter!

Calling me a bullsh*ter is just name-calling, not an argument. If you don’t have a logical counterpoint, perhaps consider skipping my posts instead of dragging the conversation down.

[zondra]

He can't help himself.

[disaster]

like those two Druid bitches that are currently in the realms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB7fgX6H9_M

[Ridgeway]

Don't confuse yourself, I ain't mad about dying. I've been killed in this game enough times that it doesn't matter. I don't like the 2v1. Had either came and killed me alone, I wouldn't have said anything about it at all. Plus they didn't even try 1v1img me first. It's was an instant 2v1.

Do you think I'm gonna go recruit help when I try and Cleave Anza in half later? No, and I know if that Cleave doesn't go off Im f*cking toast. Won't mean I won't try though, not will I recruit assistance. It seems scummy to me in a game that is about preps and gear and not skill.

Matter of fact that's probably the first time I've ever been 2v1 in this game. May happen to others on the regular, but first time for me. Maybe I should take it as a compliment, perhaps I'm getting more "skilled" in the game and becoming a threat.

[khiren]

like those two Druid bitches that are currently in the realms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB7fgX6H9_M

 

[Raider]

Also, if after all that you for some reason can't kill the person, go find someone else to help you, so it is 2v1, like those two Druid bitches that are currently in the realms. This is considered skill to the playerbase. Has been this way for 20+ years.

What can I say, man? A few days ago, I attacked a group in Maus and killed one, but the other was out of range. I didn’t get any loot, as that's not how I roll (out of the clan). The one who was out of range quickly switched to another character. Moments later, a druid, wild elf, showed up, and we fought in front of the Maus; he ended up fleeing. Shortly after, a wild elf ranger appeared, and we fought to a stalemate. Then the druid came back, this time with a beast assassin. What started as one versus two quickly became one versus three. By some luck, I was able to disengage and retreat. Unfortunately, I lost the log; otherwise, I'd post it.

Regarding pesky gnome druids, watch out, where there were two, now there are three  

You forgot to mention that your charater is a neutral kender ranger. And this kender attacked a neutral fighter without saying anything. And then a neutral druid.

Is even basic RP no longer relevant? Is this how we want this game to be?

A warhorse collapses, sending Kerr tumbling to the ground.

I'd say this should give a round of lag to the rider.

[khiren]

Also, if after all that you for some reason can't kill the person, go find someone else to help you, so it is 2v1, like those two Druid bitches that are currently in the realms. This is considered skill to the playerbase. Has been this way for 20+ years.

What can I say, man? A few days ago, I attacked a group in Maus and killed one, but the other was out of range. I didn’t get any loot, as that's not how I roll (out of the clan). The one who was out of range quickly switched to another character. Moments later, a druid, wild elf, showed up, and we fought in front of the Maus; he ended up fleeing. Shortly after, a wild elf ranger appeared, and we fought to a stalemate. Then the druid came back, this time with a beast assassin. What started as one versus two quickly became one versus three. By some luck, I was able to disengage and retreat. Unfortunately, I lost the log; otherwise, I'd post it.

Regarding pesky gnome druids, watch out, where there were two, now there are three 

You forgot to mention that your charater is a neutral kender ranger. And this kender attacked a neutral fighter without saying anything. And then a neutral druid.

Is even basic RP no longer relevant? Is this how we want this game to be?

Ah, that was you? I could tell there was skill at work that evening—well played with the wild elf ranger. I picked up a lesson or two from that encounter, I did.

When it comes to the PK, I tend to uphold the basics, which Sirrion clarified in this post.
https://solace.i-read-you.ru/forum/index.php?topic=5978.msg37223#msg37223
"Good can't nuke good, and Heretics can't use magic items." - Everything else is fair game.

If you’re looking for RP, he belongs to the Wick Tree, whose members all share a disturbed fixation with combat. Unless well medicated with elven wine.

[khiren]

Also, if after all that you for some reason can't kill the person, go find someone else to help you, so it is 2v1, like those two Druid bitches that are currently in the realms. This is considered skill to the playerbase. Has been this way for 20+ years.

What can I say, man? A few days ago, I attacked a group in Maus and killed one, but the other was out of range. I didn’t get any loot, as that's not how I roll (out of the clan). The one who was out of range quickly switched to another character. Moments later, a druid, wild elf, showed up, and we fought in front of the Maus; he ended up fleeing. Shortly after, a wild elf ranger appeared, and we fought to a stalemate. Then the druid came back, this time with a beast assassin. What started as one versus two quickly became one versus three. By some luck, I was able to disengage and retreat. Unfortunately, I lost the log; otherwise, I'd post it.

Regarding pesky gnome druids, watch out, where there were two, now there are three  

A warhorse collapses, sending Kerr tumbling to the ground.

I'd say this should give a round of lag to the rider.

That would be the least we can do, but I still vote for having a fall mechanic.

How about adding fall damage along with a bit of random lag (1–3 seconds), scaled by the type of fall, the rider’s weight, type of terrain, and the mount’s height?