Sneak and Hide

[rexbu]

Currently, sneaking is more potent as a racial trait than a class skill. For example, an elf (any class) will flee out of combat without the enemy knowing the direction of fleeing. Classes with sneak (without racial) cannot replicate this.

IMO, all classes with sneak should match with racial skill - it shouldn't be toggleable but automatic.

The problem with hide is its inconsistent behavior and how easily the hidden status is broken.

Hide will be broken on many actions, such as scanning, casting a spell, and retrieving items from bags; however, these do not significantly impact tactical gameplay and can be easily mitigated with mud client triggers, making them a nuisance. The result is constant spam from mud client triggers to re-enter the hidden state.

Inconsistent behavior (some of these seem like bugs) - superb reflex and dragon blood will not bump out of hide, but many other non-combat skills (endure, detect hidden…) will, typing "practice" will also break hide.

IMO - to make things simple, hide (and sneak) should not be broken on non-combat skills, only on combat and terrain.

Opinions?

[omledufromage]

Not breaking hide on non-combat skills would make it way to OP, imho.

[khiren]

Not breaking hide on non-combat skills would make it way to OP, imho.

I think the current implementation doesn’t add real balance; it just causes frustration.

Breaking hide on things like scanning, practicing, or rummaging through bags doesn’t make gameplay more tactical; it just adds busywork.

Players already automate re-hiding with triggers, so it becomes spam rather than strategy.

If balance is the concern, the breaking points should focus on combat actions and movement/terrain, where it does have tactical weight.

Non-combat bumps punish quality of life without giving opponents any meaningful advantage.

[rexbu]

Not breaking hide on non-combat skills would make it way to OP, imho.

why do you think so? Invis is not broken on anything non-combat, I dont see it as OP, but I am eager to hear.

[omledufromage]

Invisibility is a spell for which one can easily buy potions of 'detect invis'. If hide were "unbreakable", so to speak, then some classes would be completely incapable of even noticing that someone (and who) is around. It's completely different.

Sure, you can argue that all you need is to set a trigger to make yourself hidden quickly again after a scan, or another skill, however breaking the hiding in the moment gives a clue to people in the surroundings that you are there. Even people in the area are able to see you around with "where". That gives them the potential sense of danger and gives them the chance to choose to go to somewhere where you cannot hide. Not even giving them this opportunity is, again, beyond OP. It is broken. Aside from that, some skills have lag. Want to eagle eye someone? Lag. Want to cast 'detect invis'? Lag. All of these are small moments of vulnerability to the assassin since he leaves hiding, and they should be there.  

Not to mention how much easier it becomes for assassins to go in areas with aggressive mobs if they can just scan freely without worry of being seen and attacked... Again, it's OP. The only class that has the ability to walk around freely unseen are abjuration transmuters, and they sacrifice a lot to be able to do so (meaning they basically don't have offensive power, etc...).

You're basically asking for assassins to possess the ability to stay unseen just as well as abjurers (in the appropriate terrain), while preserving the offensive capacity of assassins (or thieves).
 

[rexbu]

Ok that makes sense. And I partially agree. Still thief/assassin would not be totally unseen, as they often have to change terrain (there is forest everywhere, water etc.). In town they are unseen but that seems thematic. Also many classes have ways to deal with hidden, like wizard eye, sense living, faerie fog, area spells etc.

[khiren]

Invisibility is a spell for which one can easily buy potions of 'detect invis'. If hide were "unbreakable", so to speak, then some classes would be completely incapable of even noticing that someone (and who) is around. It's completely different.

Sure, you can argue that all you need is to set a trigger to make yourself hidden quickly again after a scan, or another skill, however breaking the hiding in the moment gives a clue to people in the surroundings that you are there. Even people in the area are able to see you around with "where". That gives them the potential sense of danger and gives them the chance to choose to go to somewhere where you cannot hide. Not even giving them this opportunity is, again, beyond OP. It is broken. Aside from that, some skills have lag. Want to eagle eye someone? Lag. Want to cast 'detect invis'? Lag. All of these are small moments of vulnerability to the assassin since he leaves hiding, and they should be there. 

Not to mention how much easier it becomes for assassins to go in areas with aggressive mobs if they can just scan freely without worry of being seen and attacked... Again, it's OP. The only class that has the ability to walk around freely unseen are abjuration transmuters, and they sacrifice a lot to be able to do so (meaning they basically don't have offensive power, etc...).

You're basically asking for assassins to possess the ability to stay unseen just as well as abjurers (in the appropriate terrain), while preserving the offensive capacity of assassins (or thieves).
 

What you describe as “OP” should actually be a core mechanic for assassins and thieves. Giving away constant clues to their whereabouts strips away the element of surprise, and that element is being undervalued here.

Those “small moments of vulnerability” don’t provide real counterplay; they just punish assassins and thieves with endless re-hide spam and weaken the entire point of stealth. Non-stealth classes already have straightforward counters, like terrain where hiding isn’t possible. And nowadays it’s practically impossible to reach zones outside the city without crossing exactly that kind of terrain. If that’s not enough of a clue for someone, I don’t know what is.

Most mobs can detect hidden players, but very few can detect astral or invisibility. I am not really sure what point you were trying to make.

The request is that the hide not be broken by using non-combat skills, spells, or actions.

Stealth classes, like assassins are already punished enough:

• by being forced to move through terrain that doesn’t allow hiding.
• by having to prepare the room where they can perform their endgame assassination skill.
• by having them restricted to physical damage type

[Sirri]

I’m on Omle’s side here; hide is an active messy skill by design; lack of “quality of life” is exactly what a hiding person feels.
Racial sneak is strong but I don’t see PK scene dominated exclusively by elves, which means it’s not really OP.

[khiren]

I’m on Omle’s side here; hide is an active messy skill by design; lack of “quality of life” is exactly what a hiding person feels.
Racial sneak is strong but I don’t see PK scene dominated exclusively by elves, which means it’s not really OP.

I understand that Hide was designed to be messy, but the question is whether that design still makes sense when the end result is just spam and busywork, rather than meaningful counterplay.

“Quality of life” isn’t about making stealth effortless; it’s about letting the skill serve its intended purpose without drowning players in re-hide triggers for actions that have no tactical weight.

But hey, it's your mud; if you think it's fine as is, we can close this topic.