Solace Old Forum

This is very large post and if you do not want to read it, of course you do not have to. But if you feel tired by the pointless quarrel on the edge of Solace existance, you are welcomed. No insults here, though some critics against some of you.

There are two opposite points of view. I cannot quote, but there was Majere who told that Kiri-Jolith is doing pretty much for Solace and this surely gives him a right to take some decisions about skills working and common rules, and there was Someone not special (SNS) who told that Kiri has completely ruined the game.
I understand both points, and cannot completely agree with any. But Majere's point is more obvious and I think needs no special comments, while all SNS and Company's attemts to explain their point sounds for Immortals like insults... So I will take this point of view, and defend as if it was mine. I am going to explain you why some of the high classed players think that Kiri-Jolith ruins the game, while he is obviously working on code hard and positive results are also obvious.

First, I will explain my understanding of terms 'newbie', 'average player', and 'high classed player'.
Primitive definitions of newbie as 'player who has played less then N months' seem wrong to me. Newbie is a player with very obvious behaviour peculiarities, and, taking me as an example, I was newbie for 1.5 years of playing, while some of players easily leave that stage in 5 months.
Playing skill consists of three parts - role, PK skills and knowledge. And player stops being newbie once he feels his power in at least one of these domains. The most common way - feel your the power in PK. Once your character kills a team of three characters of the same rank, you will not tell anyone 'Of course, you have killed me because you are 4 ranks higher' ever since - the words of newbie. Because you start respecting yourself.
This was my way, too, and I think many of you remember the heavy hammer of 23 ranked draconian cleric of Takhisis named Sart. But there are other ways. You may be one of the weakest killers, but once you will talk to God who has a mood to listen and prove you are the master of your role, not just another bard, but the bard who writes own songs for example, and get rewarded by this God - of course, you will stop being newbie, too.
High classed players do not have to be perfect in all three domains, but of course noone will call high classed a player without a role, or a player who knows only 5 areas, or a player who does not know how to kill.
My path, since I was satisfied by my strength, stopped being common. I did not have noticeable clan characters, neither I had heroes. My role remained at average level. But my knowledges were growing more and more, I mean the knowledges of useful abilities of different classes, of helpful little things across the world. I was collecting features, and I have started to invent tricks.
Some of features me and other players with high knowledges were using could even seem to be the bugs, but usually they weren't. Not because we are so fair, but because the more benefits doubtful feature gives, the more chances you will be denied for using it... But small features were always safe and nice.
Let me give you an example. I have invented the way which let me master skill riding from 1% in... ten minutes. (Come with your donkey to the river, mount, attack someone, put boat into sack, spam 'flee' - each flee command leads to 2-6 attempts to move away). Is it bug? Probably yes, but - it is very hard to invent, it saves not so much time (20-30 minutes maybe), and one practice session I saved gives me... maximum 2 hit points. Bug? No, just a feature, and no need to rewrite code or forbid, that's for sure.
This is my point of view.
Let us return to the main point of discussion. I remind you I am trying to defend people who tell that Kiri-Jolith ruins the game, not offend KJ himself (if you see the difference).
What (and why) did Kiri-Jolith, except skills he wrote? (For high-classed players, there is no difference what skills they have. If they are going to make Mighty World Ruling Character, they can easily choose the class which seems to be most powerful at present. Or will be most powerful combined with features they know. Or it will be most powerful if he will be travelling with character their OOC friend is going to play.)
1. He has fixed the code. Many of features were closed. He has different opinion about features and bugs... So let it be. This does not ruin game yet.
2. No more mastering skills from 1%. Absolutely pointless fix. Even the most stubborn mage won't get over than 5-6 training sessions from it, after he will spend 100 more hours mastering. 100 mana points for Tower mage, who likes to train mana, not health. As you can see, it did not improve high-classed players much, but they liked it, and KJ got it away.
There was some else points, but I think it is enough.
My conclusions:
KJ and others were trying to make Solace more newbie-friendly, to attract more players. Sounds good, but not when they steal our favorite toys... And it did not help. Newbies are newbies, still. One high-classed player usually can destroy three or four easily. Seems Immortals did not like the results, and simultaneously HC players did not like what Immortals have already done. Conflict was growing.
Immortals started balancing classes (just imagine what is it like - to lose some of abilities which make you powerful in the middle of nice and glorious life). And... skipping few steps (when old players already told what they think in their usual harsh self-assured manner)... just harming some of HC players which were on the top. Naimetuk, Laeran... Some others...
Their new manner was - we know enough about your mistakes and could deny you already, but we will just make your life harder instead. No need to explain it is wrong. No need to explain that being denied for proper reason, HC player would make new character, and it will be great again. But that was not what Immortals wanted, because they still dreamed about MUD where chances are equal. And their actions remind me equalization program described by Kurt Vonnegut (If one of us is deaf, we make all others deaf, too).
Immortals now prefer not to see HC players at all - this conclusion some of these players did.
The conflict escalated, and you all know the results.

You should not blame HC players with dirty mouthes. They felt harmed, and they swore. They were insulted, and they insulted, too.
You should not blame immortals. "Хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда".

I am sure that all who have cried 'Chemosh, ban these idiots who dare to lose respect and let us play, we are good, white, and soft' are NOT high-classed players. Sorry, guys, if you were, you'd know that Kiri-Jolith's efforts are not totally nice. Just one example: if you were playing at good level, you'd not praise KJ for fixing all crush bugs, because now this is ten times harder to find gold lettered spellbook and other books of this value...

Yes, maybe, one day Solace will be available again. There will be no more HC players, but some time later some of you will leave your average level and become higher... And maybe some of you will understand what did we feel last months.

My draconian soul makes me say that I wish you to feel the same.

Just to help those who do not wish to read such large posts, how would you answer your own question in one sentence? Who ruins Solace? Best intentions of immortals?

Well, dear Maerryji. Thank you for your attempt, but your explanation seems completely wrong for me. I think all of so called High Level Players (adequate ones) praise KJ for his fixes of things you mentioned. I do not care about all these crashes fixed and tricks closed. And I always reported most of them %).
Main problem is not that all good fixes, I would hand a beer to KJ for all of it. But I call him a moron for his interventions into RP, for cheating for his own cabal, inproving their spells, empowers and clan powers in just an insane way, for his own RP of KJ and other many things he does not know at all. That is what I call destroying of the game and it's atmosphere.

A lot for the things you say are features and were 'fixed' have been known about for ages (eg, the many ways to practice skills quickly such as fleeing from no-exit areas, using certain weapons against immune mobs, practicing skills from 1%).  

In the past they were deliberately *not* 'fixed' because I thought players should be allowed to do such things.  I've had lot of debates with chemosh on these sort of changes (eg, characters practicing spells by spamming the same one in their guilds was ok for me and I didn't think we needed to hard-code rules that stopped it).

On the other hand, Kiri-jolith prefers to fix such features and this makes him unpopular.  

If players don't like these changes they have to post their reasons on why they shouldn't have been changed.  The players who didn't like the changes and simply insulted immortals with stupid and rude comments have done nothing except make Chemosh sick of the entire thing.

I dont find  changes are to big to make atmosphere ruined.I haven't noticed that gold books are harder to find now,actually i found 2-3 in several days.I think there should be more different spellbooks ,at least 15-20 for each class,but each spell/skill should be in small,limited number.That would produce players in same class being very different,i find it more interesting.And books should be set in every areas through all world,not only on zombies ,mermaids etc,while some areas never produce them.
Main problem in this mud is in players.Too many powerseekers,too many people hungry for overpower,items and such.People are forgotting to enjoy in RP.Hrm,maybe items should not be so powerful,so player depend more on class skills/spells.
Also,lot of players act like they are imms and think they can do imm work.Maybe players should worry more about playing and not about imm stuff.Imm should not be so vulnerable to critics.
Maybe one player should be declared as a speaker of players,and only him be let to speak with imms about problems that players have with features  and their complaints.
I found this mud best and very unique,very interesting and exciting to play.
I regret that i havent explored it all and havent learned all classes.

About recent changes. Just a tiny example.

As far as I remember, there was a large discussion about raising skills from 1%. There were lots of arguments why players should be able to do that. And no explanation was given about the reason of this change.

And back again to the discussion of our Imms. I fairly believe, that most of the Imm crew should be gathered from most experienced and respected players, not some people noone know. That is the way our precious Cf goes by and noone ever have any thoughts to complain about Imms even when Imm leader of the Cabal makes mortal character to lead this cabal (Wildly known Yanacek, Poisoner of Souls, Emperor of Thera, was so perfectly roleplayed and had such an outstanding PK experience that no any single person of more then 200 killed by him never ever whined about a thing). That is counter example to our Imms, who are loosely players and have no idea about actual game mechanics on my mind (even main coder and implementor hardly know what players do need). But this is ok, we lived with it for many years, just do  not interfere in the mainstream of game process and it will be fine %P

Considering myself as HC player, I completely agree that our respect to immortals mostly depends not on their coding efforts, areas they've written and spelling mistakes they've fixed. Indeed, if there was an immortal who has torn us all onto pieces by his mortal character (not the character equipped and trained by immortal powers), we'd respect him by default, and he also would understand us more easily.
Maybe, it is wrong. Maybe, it is snobism. But if Immortals prefer to solve the problem, removing us all, it may mean only one thing. They do not have enough respect to us by default. If one of the main gods tells us about immortal interfering into game that "that's why I never play mortal scum", doesn't it mean there is something wrong with their Immortal crew and its aims?

When you enter game and start looking around
and type help rule
first thing they put up your nose is this:
1. Your presence here is a PRIVILEGE, not a right.
Obey ANY and ALL orders from the Immortals and you will be fine.
Deletion does NOT require a reason.  Appeals are to be sent to the
Implementers.

Now where in this did you got imprestion that they give a F. abouth
players who play mud?
 >:(

Pardon, is this your game or are we your slaves, maybe?

Nope.
Why did you ask that, I wonder.

Kiri-Jolith, if you wish to tell that "It is my game and go to hell with your opinion", why did you implement the forum, may I wonder?
Predicting your probable answer - I am not constant cheater, I am not insulting immortals permanently.
I always thought that basic principle any game is built on is that players should have fun.
In our case, I agree you also should be considered as players in some sence, so not only fun for mortal players should be considered.
But if you understand that your team makes playing mortals unpleasant, why do you still call it game?
This is something which reminds me politics and politicians... Any of politicians tells he works for people, but noone will ever agree to become one of the people he works for, that's what I meant.

If your playing is unpleasant, go and play another MUD.

Playing MUD can not be unpleasant all the time. But it can not be pleasant all the time as well. If every player would follow your advice, there would be no players at all.

ya still didn't get that it is pointless to discuss something with Kiri he always his own opinion and this opinion is always right

I didn't said leave forever, did I? My advice was: leave for some time, instead of insulting Immortals. Being mortal I always followed such advices and never I insulted Immortals, even I didn't agree with many things.

Did I complain? No, I've just repeated your own words and made conclusion. Anyway, soon we all will go to other MUDs, but I do not think Chemosh meant only players when he said that "he cannot leave us even for a week".

you know you are the only Immortal I have ever insult in my life and ya realy deserve it at list as I think. I still don't understand how Sargonnas stand before you and listed for your insulting agains him without anyword I could not do it on his place

Yes, he didn't mean only players when he said that. But I suggested to all Immortal crew: if it can save Solace, let me leave. Why do you think it didn't happen?

To tell you the truth i never got in a fight with imms
in relm i always played my char they way i saw him fit to be.

But what has opseted me most when you denied several
chars with out any IC reason.

And no where in rules there is write that you can be deleted
for OOC reasons, that my friend was big mistake you did
mistake that is bringing Solace down.

Yes leave us please, I can find good cooder for solace ;)

Sounds fine, but I thought that discussing the problem with immortals is even better. And if immortals get insulted by our topics about things that we do not like - well, it is a moderated forum, that means - everything except constructive messages and questions can be deleted.

I think, that would be better for Solace. After all, I do believe that Kiri-Jolith requires advices of old players from time to time.

Sad that it does not matter anymore, does it?

Players who insult imm,ooc or in game,should be definitelly denied.I was wandering how some people in logs insult imms with sharp words and imms still talk and listen to them.I would delete them...
What else imm should do when insulted? Should they close mud and stop some annoying frustrated people to spill poisoned words?Or should deny such players? I think the last solution is better.The best solution is ignore them or siteban.
Kiri did much to mud and restored it and i think he earned to stay,thats my opinion ,whatever happened

And if immortal blaming and insulting me? what should I do? eat it?