Solace MUD Official Forum

The MUD still has a lot of wimpers. They see enemies, they quit. Personally, I think we cannot enforce rules and punish such players. We don't have enough immortal observers, and we don't have enough players for it.

I would like to discuss ideas, which could bring more PK action to Solace. For example, we could remove constitution penalty for dying in PK. We could reduce number of clans to 4. But how to change limited items, the obvious root of this problem? Any ideas?

A few major things which i think could stimulate pk fighting.

Right now. well i have to admit there has been good activeness in trying to
stimulate clans. Most noticeably however is heretics seem disadvantged.
No leader. Little on the extent of rewards of promotions ( i have noticed large time zone difference for majority of that clan)

Piyade has little time to play i believe,
however for Milon/Arielle/Weinou, while fading-new inductions, one for sure hero rank,
others hair width from from hero range, yet all low member still.

So only suggestion would continue upkeeping attention to all clans to promote interest.

I think major thing now. it is to easy to have a few trash chars, gang a well armored hero and kill
with crappy armor. (This is truth, please dont argue this). Most often it results in in full loot, even
clan battles have been resulting in full loot or just as far as i am concerned cruel actions.

Its their choice but then again it is IN NOW WAY making it stimulating to continue char.

I think placing a limit of how much you can loot from enemies corpse (total) or at a time.

For example.

command get all corpse
You cant full loot the corpse of Ean! (that will be the day!!! Long overdue i think :) )
therefore you have to get item specifically by name.
get brace cor
You get a bracelet from the corpse of Ean!

Or

command get all corpse
you get blah 1 from corpse of Arielle!
you get blah 2 from corpse of Arielle!
you get blah 3 from corpse of Arielle!
you get blah 4 from corpse of Arielle!
you get blah 5 from corpse of Arielle!
You cant get more from the corpse of Arielle!

Affects

Loot Corpse affects none for 1 hour.


I also suggested the possibility of having observer/enforcing immortal for north american time to sirrion, he
seemed to like the idea but after his departure never heard more of such things.

Introducing potentially another class or two.

I know this is alot of work, but even i have found myself bored of the classes of lately.
(I STILL REALLY WANT BARDS BACK!!)  minus the song that imitates  Dalamars ring.


My fondest memories of solace. had to be of immortal interaction. ( i know this part is hard,
numbers of playerbase and immortalbase are low, people are busy and time brings forth
new barriers to overcome, but maybe we can even schedule nice quests and stuff if anyone
was will to put that kind of time in? )


Now im going to pick on one character in Paticular.

Im sorry ean, dont know who you are, but i will find out soon enough.


He is renown to be an ass, if you arent in pk range and in enemy clan, he raids raids raids raids raids raids.
unallowing you to ever do anything else.
Im going to bring forth my brother here, he recently has joined solace after not playing for.. god 6 years?
so i consider him ridiculous noob. I have given him a few of my trash characters to kind of get the game back, he also has ranked his own to hero.
and this happens not only to him, i think anyone will mention.

Anytime he logs on with one of his heroes, boom tesseract kill loot some stuff if there is anything good.
goes back to his tower not a word.
or even on reraid.
Now i hope alot of people will agree with this, but when i was zaltais. Razlen bolhir, khirsten even heretics or whoever else i was fighting.

Anytime you died ... 2 , 3 MAX. i would let you reraid. im not going to condeath, im not an asshole,
hell whenever i play a thief, i always feel bad i stole and end up giving it back. (isnt that sad?)

Heh, i had a clan character a little while back, trying to reraid against a necro is damn hard.
i ended up getting so pissed off, because not only when he kill syou does he take weapons everytime
so you have nothing to reraid with. he continues to kill and kill and hunt and hunt and hunt.

Now i dont mean to be like PUNISH HIM. not at all.


but i have to say, opposite clan wise, its a huge HUGE HUGE clan member killer.
Now i'm definitely trying to break the habbit of, Oh look ean and halian are on, im
not going on. and i've been going on to try and reraid, die once or twice, get pissed of
because OH WOW, once again i have to get all my weapons again.

i dont even know what this rant is getting at anymore, but i think what i am majorally trying
to say is that this mud is very quickly and rapidly approaching a non friendly newbie mud,
that if they have a character over... hell rank 10. they are getting killed and looted alot.
when they dont even need to be which is the ridiculous thing. and i think at this point
because of how busy everyone is with jobs, life, everything. not much is being done to reverse
this process, or do anything else about it.

I think we should also maybe form a method, or manner in which we might be able to
advertise again, and really get the word out there, and take an active involvement in new
players, and even encouraging old players to stick around to bring this mud back to its former
glory.

because lets face it, it is an awesome mud. Great areas, ideas, immortal staffs, players.
items. ( i think the feats and vamping has started to get ridiculous). especially the amount
of hp you can have now. ( and i am slowly starting to hate the new saves system about needing 60
plus saves to be really protected, and that is hard to do and upkeep hp and damage)

This is a great mud, and it has always been and hasnt changed, so lets bring in a new player base,
really stick it to them. and make it something memorable.
i've played a few muds now , and set up wise, how everything looks, this is my favourite.

Return old Heretics without warpaints etc. :)

- I agree that elite limited items can hinder pk ironically.  As in, if you are buffed with these items you should want to fight...most times the opposite occurs for fear of losing these things.  Also as stated earlier the pain of re-equipping a character from naked for time constraints makes some think eh..its not worth it.  

1.)  Have some items deemed a higher level of limited.  Call them elite or whatever.  These items disappear from characters after a certain amount of time...no matter what.  And reappear on mob.  This will keep such items in the loop...and thus perhaps keep many from having super-geared basically rp characters.  Before, these items switched around quickly and naturally from pk clearly this is not the case now.

2.)  There does need to be some sort of hinderance to full looting as well.  Perhaps you must type full name of item to retrieve it from corpse.  And as stated no get all command for corpses, a 3-5 item initial loot seems fine too.  With a cooldown time of an hour if you manage to slay your foe in a far off place resets your 3-5 loot ability.

3.) Make slayer only player even able to loot your corpse.  So many vultures in the lands now.  And I suspect the most inventive cheat Ive seen... naked chars (thieves and assassins moslty) that follow battles and linger in hero pk.  Logged on to weaken and steal from players...and conveniently die to character  that you were fighting with a smile  and "looted" and thus a new clever item transfer method is born. :)

4.)  I have stated it several times that no one knows about Solace.  It is considered a dead link to most online mud sites.  Our information must be updated.

5.)  An arguement for full looting other then being a jerk I have heard is that you dont want to fight the same foe over and over after he just gets his clothes and rests.  You get little benefit from this in clan battles for a slaying if nothing is looted according to some.  He can just sleep an hour and kill a drunk and he's back in the fray.  Perhaps you keep ghost timer same...but add another timer called "pacified".  Once your slain you cant do anything aggressive for an hour or so to give at least a benefit from a raiding or defending slaying.  

6.)  Make an arena for practice pk for new players so they are less frightened of pk.

7.)  Perhaps Im just a bad explorer.  But there is a larger gap between limited and non-limited gear.  After Full loot and rank 10...there is the obligatory wyrmling set, buffalo, steel wristguard, kender helm, earthen gear kit.  And from these a usual jump straight to limited or elite gear.  The middle ground is lacking.  Just as an example those simple gears listed above are better then the full set of the captain from Giant castles gear who is a formidable warrior and his gear is limited, for neutral humans only.

8.)  Maybe upon slaying of foe 3-5 random items from the corpse inventory drop outside the corpse as well as whatever they were holding.  These items are in the room on the ground and could be taken with get all.  Then the corpse is safe from further looting.

9.)  Another take on looting can be.  Mostly only items not worn by the slain foe can be looted. most of his worn gear could be protected from desecration but his inventory spills onto the floor. cept backpacks should have there own wearable slot :)  This combined with option 1.) could balance maybe.

10.)  On death all limited items on dead poof!  This is annoying too but at least both now have a chance at the gear.  This would depend better on system rebirths more often.

     As me and Caleb can agree on this...full looting is like a snowball effect.  It multiplies geometrically.  Some hardcore players will say they dont care...but on the "wrong day" or perhaps after multipe times a full loot can cause I think even the most devoted to delete on occassion.  We dont want to water it down too much but we dont want scared item hoarders either.  

Well , NO.
NO to restrict of fulloot - that's what makes Solace the MUD we love. :)
NO to lack of middle unlimited gear - there is nice equipment :) (todo: there's no unlimited platemail with saves, or I just don't know?)

- thanks for adding some ideas ... as usual constructive ::)

meh, forget about lootings. Find a way to have an imm on at all times. Even if it's just one to enforce rules upon people. Should be a rule about not being a douche bag. Raiding 30x to prevent someone who's not hero ranked from enjoying the game is being a douche bag. Full looting elite gear is being a douche bag. Transferring eq is being a douche bag. Having friends log on to help you kill people is being a douche bag. Having an imm on at all times will help to prevent these things.

Guys, what you are suggesting would just kill Solace!
I think we all saw such muds where you respawn in a temple with all your gears in inventory...
One should be aware that he can lost everything no matter what.
There's no point to play wihtout risk of loss.

Post Scriptum To Make Things Clear: Being a noob, I personally never full loot, but are getting looted from time to time ;o)

That wouldn't help at all. The only way to improve PK action is to fix items somehow: looting, cheating, transfer, etc.

-  So even looting all items one by one...is too much of a hinderance for looters? Sorry that this would mess up those with trigger " is DEAD"get all.book corpse"  "get all corpse"  ... if this is what solace is all about.  Woopity do where do I sign up.  That will get more then 6 players per continent Im sure.  Its all working out fine as is...clearly why an immortal started this post...for no reason.(<---Sarcasm)

Seems like this is a result of nerfing skills, every time a skill is nerfed better equipment is needed to compensate. At the same time skills have been nerfed BY better equipment...

I would say Assassins lost major malediction/high damage attack that can be used to engage, warriors lost flourentine in offensive etc... Most don't want to lose their shinies cause without them they are nothing, some still fight because they couldn't possibly lose.

But i wont say that :) cause they ALL lost all benifit of their maledictions with introduction f wyrmling gear and loads of +str/dex bonuses added in the equipment revamp. Don't get me wrong the equipment revamp was great, nice gear is everywhere. But so many item granting +str and +dex(some up to +5 str and +3 dex each) was too much.

The autocasts are cool, they make things interesting, there should be more, mostly worn in the same slots to prevent stacking so much. And the saves are cool, some of them are to easy to take though, gee the best necklaces for saves are WAY easy to take.

I loaded gauntlets of ogre power at 25 rank, thats me immune to boneshatter, straight up from one item. Add giant strength, some other item that probably has +1 or 2 str, you would have to be Sios to stop me parrying as well.

Enforced RP has nothing to do with lack of well-geared PK action. I am looking into improving PK action among existing population, who don't complain about RP and rules.

- lower dependancy on eq.
- lower clan powers. For me clans are the way to have reasons for pk, not added powers. Raid/reraids.
- either make it easier to join a clan or remove 25rank limitation(takes much time to wait for induct, and there is nothing to do while you're at 25)
- balance skills/spells at all levels, not just for hero, there are tonns of useless low/mid level skills.
- change guardians/laws - for now, breaking laws is a 100% death, so you dont want to break laws.
- its pretty easy to flee any fight, too much protection from lagging skills, too low chances for lagging skills, too much damage reduce, too good chances for blocks. It should be action-counteraction system, like you should be able to find a key to every door.

I dont want to say this, but CF is a great example of perfectly developed PK system.

For myself, nonlimit geared shadow assassin, everytime i login i have to reraid, and for every fight i do i feel that shadow assassins need improves at these levels of fight - w/o gear they are nothing. Unless you think this is ok. You should at least admit, that w/o certain level of gear you just cant stand in a serious fight with some classes.

So, what is your idea? How to prevent well-geared players from typing "quit" each time they are in danger? They will quit anyway, because better equipment makes your character stronger, no matter how your skills and spells work.

Its not a secret that almost all super-geared players sometimes quit in dangerous situations. Not everyone accepts it on public, but its true.

We can't manage it. And even if we could, people would still quit. There are lots of smart ways of saving super-equipment, while not breaking any rule.

There are things, which we cannot do. We cannot make a full revamp to items, we have no resources for it.

I agree that we need more immortals, who will help with clan induction and interaction. I will talk to Chemosh about it.

What about balancing skills and spells, you shall provide a list for all classes, not just for your beloved ones. Alas, we have no resources to revamp all skills and spells in Solace.

In gear-dependant MUD we cannot make holding skills stronger. It will help to quit, not to increase number of fights.

Hrm i haven't really thought of a way to fix it, and i don't think that is the whole reason for the problem, as someone else put it 'Douches' are probably a big part of it too.

Ok, Lets look at my character. I have 4 auto's, extra pet, displacement, sanctuary for my strong pets, blink, nice maces. In a forest, I don't really fear much, not even a necromancer... Out of a forest i am still feeling mostly safe. I can at least attempt to fight someone who might beat me knowing i can very likely get away safely. Along comes mr warrior with his two cold maces or his lightning or whatever maces, attacks me, bashes my griffon trying to dismount me. He has boneshattered which did nothing to aid him, and then hit me once in 3 rounds. He can't drum until i am dismounted so he keeps bashing the griffon and i keep fleeing to remount but he is stuck fighting my pets. His mace poisons me, more -str but i still have giant str and some other +str bonuses on my gear. Once a round i swing my mace for a mangle, in 6 rounds the warrior has turned to backhand and hit me a couple of times for disembowels, mean while my elementals are tearing him appart, i have blinded and cursed him or hit him for 6 mangles, if he stays and fights he will surely die, better quaff return. He quaffs return, heals up, stays away from me, quits. Though if he had been unsuccessful with boneshatter he might try again, cause he has this mistaken belief that it will be useful. Cause of course, It has to be useful its a skill... but its not, it does not alter the outcome of the fight, better to bash my griffon once more instead, perhaps i will typo mount and take a few rounds worth of damage on foot...

The only ideas i can think of - Perhaps increase maledictions but perhaps make some of them harder to land? Or remove/decrease the stat bonus from lots of gear.

I know some people would come to explore new zones. Imma work on that now myself :)

I dont have beloved classes, each class i play i note useless stuff and things to change.
Usual answer "it is supposed to be so" and what is the reason for that supposing?

energy drain is useless in current state.  high mana cost, low damage, hard to pierce saves, not that huge benefits.
regeneration is useless in current state.

Why these exist if these are useless? Even in newbie guides there are words like "this is useless, dont practice ever"

You can change global things to lower eq dependancy.
Raise skills damage, change saves ( lower svs - raise chances, higher svs - lower chances, ultimate defense should be very hard to reach imho),  why some classes get like 15-20 to all saves from spellups, and others dont. Damn.. everything i say is just observations from CF *frown*

But okay, i will work on list of things i'd like to be changed. And its not that hard and timeconsuming to change formulas in fight.c and magic.c

if you make flee preventing skills stronger - eq will spread among more chars, lowering numbers of elite geared wimpers, and raising numbers of good-geared players in general.
I just wont fight an enemy, wont chase it and engage it if i know that i wont be able to kill it. If i know that he'll flee easily.  What for to fight in this situation? Waste of time. There is only one guaranteed way to kill a smart, geared person - norecall(curse) + wall of ice/roots + outnumbering.

there are other ways to help clan induction than finding more imms... like no induction at all, so you could choose your clan when you create the char(and its pretty logical) :)

Mathew:
cf boneshatter does like -12str/dex
there are more skills like that, so you can have -30 str/dex
there are a lot of armors +str/dex, so you can counter those
weapons have real weight, like an axe that weghts 2 pounds is a nonsense, so a landed boneshatter on not prepared victim will definately make him drop the weapon(apart from daggers,whips and some others)
and noone complains about fighterlikes being overpowered.

When I answer "it is supposed to be so", it means that I have checked the skill or spell someone is complaining about and noticed that player just doesn't know how it works.

And, believe me, IT IS time consuming to change formulas. They are NUTS. For example, parry formula spreads over 150+ lines. For each skill and spell you must spend ~30 minutes to change it to something reasonable, check level scaling, save throw chances, feats, and so on. And if you count all these... with more than 700 skills and spells in MUD, you will understand that it takes about 5-10 days of raw time. But equipment revamp will take even more time, we have 9MB of areas vs 5MB of source code.

If you make holding skills stronger, eq will not spread anywhere. Instead, it will quit with its master even faster than now.

but do_energy_drain function is a bit easier to change than parry, right?

Just compare nowdays with old days of Solace. People were a lot easier to KILL, and PK action was
intense. I am sure that more killing blows will lead to more action.

Just to make it more clear. I think that people quit and avoid fighting, because they afraid to die. It doesn't matter how skills or spells work, players would still fear. Lets discuss skills and spells in another thread, and lets try to finish with anti-quit ideas here.

The problem I am trying to discuss is not why it is not interesting to fight, but why people prefer to quit instead of fighting.

In old days we had no 9 million players in WoW. And other MMORPGs were crap, even compared to MUDs. Yes, in WoW it is much easier to kill, but also you don't afraid to die at all, because there is no equipment loss.

Again, I am sure that more killing blows will lead to faster typing of quit. Its not old days, and now people have taste for PvP without being loted.

It is all linked, dont you see?

people cannot fight w/o gear because skills/spells are done in that way.
so to be able to fight they need to keep gear, so they avoid fights where they can die.
Const loss is nothing compared to time need to achieve gears to be able to stand in a fight.

PvP in wow sucks. I prefer Solace PK.

I don't see it. Even with better skills and spells, super-geared player will kill under-geared. But not 1vs2, when super-geared will just type "quit".

Kiri, this is question of mentality. People will avoid pk with any changes... if they need. Personally i think that Immortals can solve this problem with some punishment. But not with code changes. And you know that all that you need to solve it - time. A lot of free time for Solace. And you haven't as many of us.

The spell has 96 lines of code: damage calculation and 3 strangely balanced affects. Also I'd like to add that you need to test the code when you change it. It really takes lots of time.

Well, we are talking about how to make people want to participate in PK. At this moment players mostly prefer to quit instead. Personally, I think PK should be enjoyable in the MUD. So I'd like to change things, which make quit preferrable to death so much.

Perhaps some PK bonuses then? And if someone will try to cheat with it - harsh punishment.

I have some ideas. I will write it to you. But not today. Need to clean my head from alcohol. ;D

For me its obvious.
The reason for quit - fear of gear loss.

Fear of gear loss is because w/o gear you cant fight.

Change the latter - and the problem solved.

undergeared should at least have chances to kill supergeared guy with luck, tactics, right moment etc. And this is where skills/spells factor in.

Pk bonuses... do PK rating chart :)

Alas, punishment is not an option. And PK bonuses, which ones? Like pooffing limited items, if no PK action during a large period of time? You will abuse it.

This is not the problem. Even if you could fight without super-gear, you are much stronger with it. There is no point in good gear if you cannot win, when using it.

if so.. why should i go and fight, if i am undergeared and i have no chances to win, huh?

flaw in your logic.

No, not  pooffing an such things. I think in another way. Close to PK chart.

Nope, there is no flaw. You may be not completely undergeared and win with a lower chance. But when you are super-geared, and have big chances to win 1x1, you would like to keep it this way. So when it comes to reraiding 1x2, when you may die with much higher chances, you quit. The problem is not in under-geared players, they don't quit unless spamm killed and such, and it really needs a swift fix. The problem is in christmas trees, who rarely fight and ofter quit.

I see your point quite clearly now. I will try to give you one more example. Lets say, we have a super-geared player in Solamnia, who needs to reraid, and two smart normal-geared players in Takhisis. Lets assume the chances to die 1x2 are 50%, because Takhisis has access to ice wall. So Solamnic member will ask for 'who' in IRC (insert whatever you want) and won't login. Because he will be forced to reraid, so probably he will die and get looted. It means that two normal-geared Takhisis players will have no action unless one of them quits. Now, imagine that Solamnic player will not lose anything when he reraids and probably dies. Why not to come and give it a try with 50% success? Why not to put your super-gear in use, and win 1x2, this is funny and not dangerous to your character. Even if you die, it was 1x2, and you don't lose anything.

even if he wont lose anything said solamnic could prolly afraid fot his 'reputation' (for 2 IRC takhisis will surely post a log how they pwned that infamous knight) and so on and so forth =)

Well, what I wanted to say is that when you have nothing to lose you count minimal chances to win. When you have a lot, you count minimal chances to die. Raider was talking about first, while I am talking about the second.

My view is just different.
In example you stated, i'd come as solamnic and attack keep of two cowards. Wouldnt go inside, to avoid wall of ice, would have been protected against curse and blindness, balance and/or ros/ps to protect against stuns - so i can always flee. I have means to protect against cleave and spy mask to protect against assassinate.  I'd kick those two asses and post a log with "You writhe in pleasure and scream 'The PPppppPOOOOoooWWWwwwErrRRR!'"  tag
and would feel myself cool.

Tactics..

so, basically its a choise of "risk of losing eq" vs "fun from pk"
there are people who dont get fun out of pk.

Реально напрягает в праздники еще и в инглише упражняться, если кому надо - переводите сами.
Мысль такова: Закройте нафиг этот топик ибо он ни к чему не приведёт кроме ахрененого вайна. НЕ НАДО ничего делать для ипрува экшна, он сам импрувнется. Растёт онлайн - вырастет и пк - гарантирую. Просто реальная ситуация сейчас такова что большинство игроков, тех кто реально шарит в пк и любит это занятие немножко задолбили особо ревниво относящиеся к своим обязанностям иммы (*не показывая пальцем кивнул в сторону моргса*). Я думаю это пройдет через полмесяца-месяц и они вернутся.. всмысле мы.. всмысле чаров наконец откачаем.. играть банально некем/нечем :-\ Ваш выбор заключается в том чтобы следить за реальными нарушениями правил игры а не задалбливать игроков идиотизмом типо "импрува РП".

Импрув РП, который привел к делету моего апплика, заключался в том что меня провоцировали на файт с аутером клана в который собсно я пытался попасть. Если вы внимательно почитаете рулесы - вы увидите что это невозможно. Т.е. меня банально воткнули в положение из которого следовало 2 выхода:
1) атаковать аутера и по рулесам не пройти в клан
2) уйти, удалить апликашн ноту и опять же не попасть в клан.

Енфорсите РП дальше. Желаю удачи.  >:(

The reason I usually quit....

1. 3+ opposing clan coming online
2. Nobody else online, nothing to do. Too difficult for single player who's not super duper elite to go to hard places.
3. Player does something that gets me pissed at him. This can be pulling in friends from OOC means to kill me and loot me, or raiding me 15 times when not in my pk range.

Maybe it's little offtopic but I like Raider's idea to change guardians. Add them some general-purpose power, but remove some of power against criminals.

Just one thing may be enough: remove locating of criminals. And force guardians to look for them, not wait on MS.
Then it will be a clan with hard (sometimes dangerous) duties and those who go there deserve some nice powers. Maybe a 100-hours cumulative affect as a reward for punishing criminals (by yourself or your special guards)? Though would be hard to prevent abuse.

May help PK action somewhat if there are 2-3 criminals in the realm most of time.

remove autoattack of mobguards - very annoying and useless for a criminal.
and make alertness and special guards work only in cities.

> remove autoattack of mobguards - very annoying and useless for a criminal.

Annoying, but above 20th rank not so dangerous. And seems correct in all senses. (But: Arkham and Nethosak should be protected by guards obeying DHL rather than Guardians or not protected at all.)

>and make alertness and special guards work only in cities.
Special guards now seem correct as well. And are necessary to punish out-PK.
So a 25-th rank killer can feel safe once he makes one step out of city gates? Looks like nonsense.

I mean, i wont become a criminal, because those mobguards are very annoying even if they dont do any harm and in most cases i cant avoid passing through cities, so cant avoid annoyance.
And since guardian has shackles+endless special guards anywhere - its a 100% death sooner or later. Even if guardian dies.

And what is nonsense of feeling safe outside of city? besides there could be 21-29 rank guardians.

Итак, Рей... Родион Романович Раскольников ограбил и убил Алену Ивановну. Был вычислен Порфирием Петровичем. В компании оперативных сотрудников тот отправляется осуществлять арест, выясняет, что преступник только что скрылся, и догоняет его у границы санкт-петербуржского административного округа. Родион Романович стоит у знака Санкт-Петербург и счастливо машет ручкой Порфирию Петровичу.

It seems to me better to force criminals hide somewhere, maybe sometimes trying to strike back... Then Guardians will really need a clan (the more members they have, the safer are cities), not just 1-2 members like now.

/sigh

not everything can be mirrored in real life..

change "St-P border" on "Russia border" - and bingo, we have a safe criminal waving a hand.

I just stated that i wont break laws if i have choise, since the consequences are not worth it.
And since there are no (CRIMINAL) tags in realm, other players think the same.

The point of guardians are safe cities, not safe wilderness.

>>Arkham and Nethosak should be protected by guards obeying DHL

a good idea! "you cant kill everything you want here. all murders here are commiting by order of Her Majesty. and now you will die"  8)

To Raider:

Cityguards are not so annoying. If I have a good chance to kill and loot an enemy having something I'd like to gain, I will try. These are Guardians with unnoticeable eagle eye who stop me.

Russia border? Well... maybe you would like gate guards to check your passport before allowing you to leave city?

To moq:

It's rather like "By your actions you have insulted Her Majesty, scum. Now all those obeying Her will hunt you anywhere they notice you."
Upd.: Obeying DHL means obeying completely different laws, not a mirrored copy of Guardians' laws.
But instead of implementing these laws imms can just give DHL (and Keeper of the Book) a power to label enemies so that evil cities' guards will attack them.

I was afraid of Kiri coming in and saying 'FNR' :)

--
Some classes suffer much greater penalty being undergeared (i.e. thieves, assassins) - they have to wear eq for saves, hp, damroll... and it's not possible to dress (for example) thief in nonlimited eq for 40 saves - so losing eq means you'll be meat...
While all mages wear eq just for hp and saves

p.s. I quite enjoy PK with nonlimited eq :)

Any static restrictions on looting will make PK non-adrenalin and boring. Maybe some dynamic restrictions (like: you cannot be fully looted if you are killed when fought 1 vs 2) would be nice, but I don't see how could they be implemented.

I like the idea of non-eq (or person-bound eq) rewards for good PK performance. Will also encourage people to post more logs.


You have been KILLED!!

...

outfit
Lunitari sends you a shimmering ring with a flickering red stone you've just lost.
Hiddukel sends you a shield with an attacking cobra engraved on it you've just lost.
Hiddukel sends you a dimly shimmering green eye you've just lost.

Err, would you post ideas instead of discussing Guards? Stick to the topic, please.

what a crap  :-\
just read it again.. and stop it.

Прекрати плакать:

Я допускаю что ты намного умнее меня, и в инглише рубиш круче. Сути это не меняет. Суть в том что все о чем я говорил этому имморталу сбылось с точностью до 0,0000001%. А плачут тут все выше отписавшиеся, и уж никак не я. Меня устраивает все как есть на данный момент, целиком и полностью. Просто если меня еще раз подобным образом отбреют - я забью, и так уже особого желания нету. Я не против "енфорса рп", я против идиотизма.

Если нету желания - забивай. Чего ставить условия-то? Всё, вернёмся к теме обсуждения, твоя точка зрения всем понятна.

Primary idea behind discussing Guardians wasn't offtopic. Make them less deadly to criminals => more kills in cities => more criminals => possible "criminals vs Justice" wars and so on.

I don't think anything should be changed about looting-limited items stripping and so on. I don't think prohibitive rules/changes on "quit" (longer adrenalin etc) will improve PK.
What I think could be done is encouraging of PK by making common to reward it (OOC rewards like PKillers chart, non-eq rewards like additional skills or tasty books, person-bound eq like one usually given for outstanding RP now). Then a "christmas tree" will have reasons to fight against two half-naked marauders even if there's nothing to loot from them.

Hey im a christmas tree and I fight! I just have no one to fight right now... Glorg was the last 'fight' i had it consisted of me smashing him with my mace him running to palanthas, where i chased him and wall'd him into the dark temple with me. Smashed his head, he fled and teleported. Glorg the outcast knight = under-geared(he did not have chromatic armor) = quitted. Even though when Glorg HAD the chromatic armor he quit every time i logged one of my clerics (which was probably smart cause I WAS hunting him :) )

I see some other problems, clans are allowed to make treaties or have treaties forced apon them. Currently the warders get to attack a clan that is empty 90% of the time, and when it has a member online 90% of the time its not a hero. I would have thought the cities would be the warders #1 enemy, the tower mages the #2 enemy and dragonarmy last. But we are currently at war with only the dragonarmy.

Lets talk about shrines, cause i equate shrine == immortal interaction, most people think they are alone, it seems to me now if i don't write a role im not paid any attention and no immortal interacts, unless i join a clan. Then immortal interacts to induct, and now and then for small reasons. But im not a sit down and make up a 20 pages story of my imaginary characters imaginary past life kind of person.

Most characters aren't clanned and never meet an immortal in any way. The only time this wipe one of my unclanned characters ever interacted with an immortal was when i was drunk and did something naughty...  ;D

Last wipe i had an unclanned kender ranger which was good neutral that spent 99% of its life in the trolls/naga/bears area slaying naga/trolls etc and protecting the bears which ended up a full time war against the dragonarmy, Chislev use to come and chat and it was cool but, my kender was good neutral, it should have been Habbakuk! Eventually the clanned minotaur i fought with most of the time got to strong for unclanned little me who never stopped protecting the glades! And then unfortunately i lost my internet for sometime and solace wiped...

But my point is how many people are currently Tattooed? 1. A pacifist cleric. 2 Possibly still, a newbie outcast knight whos name i forget and 3 Alhana. That is of course if they still exsist seeing as they haven't been seen in weeks.... It sucks that there seems to be such a limitation on who can be tattooed, if peoples characters are so unsuitable why bother with shrines at all? The only way people will learn the ways you like each specific RP'd is if you tell them... Shrines are the other spice and no one is getting any...

I had one idea to stop clanned quitters who are suppose to reraid, Eject them from their clan hall and disallow them entry to guilds on game entry. They either have to wait for adrenalin to wear off outside of clan hall or they have to reraid. Also since im not sure if they do but the outer guard should tell who has taken the clan power then seeing as you wouldnt be able to get to your inner.

- Loot command

[log]Kill Knucklehead
Knucklehead is DEAD

>look corpse
a corpse contains :
300 gold
Elite gear
Elite gear
limited gear
limited gear
junk
junk
junk
crap
crap
> loot Knucklehead corpse

You grab wildly at knuckleheads possessions
you Got! 200 gold
junk
elite gear
elite gear
crap
limited gear
>affects

You are affected by the following :
loot remorse affecting you for 1 hour

>loot knucklehead corpse
You feel way too bad about desecrating his corpse to do that[/log]
- something like that...get 4-5 random items.

Summary of above: NO NEED ANY CHANGES :-\

з.ы. А то на шею сядут... ;D
з.ы.ы. Лучше над скиллами/спеллами подумать, чем ревампить шмот, делать рестрикты на лут и прочую риальную хуету.

Just a couple of ideas for you to choose:

Well, main reason for quit - afraid of eq loss, for sure, so all ideas is around that.

1. To decrease eq loss penality it's posible to decrease eq dependance. So even barely eqiped character could do something. The main gag here is SvS. If you have no svs - you are dead meat, and if you are svs powered one, you are realy powerfull. There is a lot of solutions for this, for example: change svs curve, so even with 20-25 svs character could resist something with good chances, and even with 100 svs you still vulnerable for spells, like 15-10%%.

2. Another solution is something close to above poster wrote. On death 80% of eq stays with you. That's simple.  Percents and dependance on rarity of staff still a subject.

3. I don't like this idea, but it is still an option. PK charts, some eq gifts based on PK charts - all of this sort WILL work. But not evryone wants so much PK, I suppose. And it's a lot of work for coders too.

4. And one more, last for now, idea. Increase ro remove eq limits. Some realy rare stuff still should be limited to 1, ofc. Easy come - easy go.  No one afraid to loose non-limited stuff.

P.S. Hey, do not listen to anyone, we still love you for keeping solace alive.

Some facts:

Some time ago:
- MUCH more players and surely online too;
- much less of clothes and their limits were terrible hehe;
- coz of absence of clothes =>> NO SVS at all.. (except surely some people who rocks that time);
- no payment for PK from imms (its about last idea);
- no limwatching demon;
- GREAT FUN. Erradicating everything and everywhere, super PK in attempts to get some clothes from those have it etc.

Now:
- less of players;
- MUCH more clothes;
- ocean of svs because of first two points;
- Almost NO PK;
- ocean of tears; (in addition: if you noticed, here is one funny tendency: the more changes to make your life in solace easier - the more whinners)
- no fun because of points above.

Thats just some facts and nothing to add I think.. as nothing to remove.

What you wanna more? More clothes? More restricts? (loot, thieves( :o ), etc)
Everyone likes to listen and discuss the easing of the game. Did you even thought that there are some players who like to solve hard problems in-game and who like hard PK etc..

P.S.: No offense.
P.P.S.: Better take care about some real things.. for example:
- fix some holes like heretics reraid;
- take care about bards at least.. why not?

I think unreal has a point there...

- Well I cant speak for all in favor of change..but I dont want anything easy..just more pk.  You made good facts but where is the idea to help more pk and more action?  More people would help but its all connected..maybe need some changes for more people to come.  Even a cadillac needs a tune up after awhile.  Even in the addition of a terrible new idea...it happens, there is a chance for bettering of mud.  But no matter how awful or awesome the idea implemented It sparks interest and couriosity.
     Ever seen so many morgion clerics then now? (only due to changes),  New clan has almost full roster,  if lands and maps are changed to new everyone will go and see them.  It is human nature, change means someone is watching and listening makes the mud feel more alive.  I am writing some things to email to imms for website and mud to perhaps add to the life of the mud and website.  Lots of my ideas are crap..maybe one or two brilliant...but we must keep attempting to improve.  Who better then you unreal and some other cranky fellas  ;D to keep some rationality to these ideas but please add some ideas yourself too with your old school flavor.  ;)

Seems you didnt noticed the sense of these facts..
I'll translate:
There is no need to make any changes-to-increase-PK - it won't help anyway.

As about ideas - so I wrote already - to fix evil holes and to add bards at least.
The main thing I want to tell is to direct coder's attention to real problems.  :-\

- or "unreal's" problems with mud?  :'(   So what will help pk ...a Bard? ???

I didnt ask to show your absence of intellect here. If you have nothing to say - just keep silence. Wise thing btw. Think about.

As for your question. The answer is simple:
PK = Player Killing
Only Player can kill another Player. Whatever you do. Whatever you change. If Player dont want to kill another Player - he will not. If Player is afraid to die - he will quit.

PK depends on players.. and only on players. Noone will improve PK except players.
And actually I'm amazed that Immortal starts this topic.
So from my point of view it would be much more better to code some real things instead of very questionable things like posted above.

- rude and as constructive as always.  Sometimes an old relic just needs to  be discarded

I think many have missed point. Oh maybe just ignored it.

He is suggesting area re-arrangement to suit how dragonlance really
is. probably adding a few areas to fill in some places. All areas are
same, just in more accurate locations to reflect dragonlance

this has nothing to do with coders, he is a builder taking this on himself :)

I didn't get Caleb's statement in this thread.
Here's an idea for people...
stop making your char's alignment always the same as the "winning" team.
Everyone you see now a days in hero range is either good or neutral or Ean, and all newbies you see are good or neutral, with some growing evils in the last few days.
Its impossible to have PK if there is no one to PK. Needs to be as many evils as there are goods. (I do not count in this statistic the trash-chars such Kbaot or Darthy.)

Guys hello, i d like to throw some ideas to enforce clan PK.

Look we already have all to enforce PK with clans.

1. Space things (buzzing appearse things with killing of someone) should be UBER if you clanned and killed clanned. They should be limited. I damn tired of killing trolls for space thing - it s dumb. It need to kill GREAT PERSON, Clanned, tittled, so it rewarded with uber price.

1/a - if you kill clanned - a manual or spellbook appears randombly with some balanced chances.

is it hard? get killed function -> load book, load elite space thing. it s all...

So, battle with clanned person will be interesting, and rewarded.

2. No con losing from battle - so people will have chances. one round i die, not loose my poor con but next round i kill with 50% chances and get manual, spellbook or such. (long time ago i spent all practics and trains to con and was really long lasting assassin, but losing con not stimulate CLAN PK) it should losing of con ONLY BECAUSE OF mob. not because of glorious PK wars. Gods should nt frown at real warriors.

space things and spellbooks, manuals - are nice things. it allow to empower your clan, help your members to get sacred knowledge and nice eq.  sometimes manuals of training - but rare.

will be no abusing, because of two fighting person should be clanned. they will risk if abuse their clan-position, and mastered character.

so, all will want to be in clans, to have rewards from battle, will be lesse trash chars - because no two clanned from one ip, and because better to fight and fight with your primary char to get stronger.

think about it, and pls, Kiri-Jolith, comment ideas - why not if reject, to feel you at least heard them.

P.S. or one more not hard coded thing - roleplayed quest on specific Clanned PK, with great reward.

and more crazy idea but interesting with not so many people in Solace.

continuing Ezus's idea to join guardians to solamnia as crown branch:

1. Make only 2 force of Krynn with CONSTANT WAR. In dragonlance damn there were always TOTAL WORLD WAR against DARK AND LIGHT.

First command: guardian+solamnia+warders+tower
Second command: takhisis+heretics+entropy+cobar

All we read dragonlance, why damn we live in dumb world without total war?

Darkness come, all inhabitants and light-neutral forces should join.

Let TOTAL WAR START :)

why not?

And our lovely 10 vs 10 fights again will be reality.

Will be really nice clan - battles, not just 10 chars in one hand and hoarding or single overpowering with elkas equipment.

P.S. i always want to see how will fight takhisis + heretic vs solamnia + tower - remember dragonlance, lords of the rings - when war starts - noone in neutrality, all fjoin.

Let s make our movie more dynamic and interesting to participate.

P.S.S. hard to code? nothing change, just we open global war and let s look, if it will be interesting we continue, if something bad - just send a note - war is over.

no fun in clan cant group with another - no fun, no good PK...

P.S.S.S. dont want war? play your single role, hide in shrine get tatoo and shut up :)

People only need so much gear 1 because others have and 2 because their skills are no longer adequate. Some classes just can't compete anymore. Only the strongest characters can hope to stand against a necromancer 90% of the time and even they are touch and go.

This isn't an example of a class which is no longer adequate, but rather an example of a class that is still adequate. In case you don't get my point, to many nerfs to skills of other classes.

Remove MOB feat, remove toughness for caster classes, increase bonus/penalty for racial hp gains to widen the difference between races. Its rediculous that my half-elf has more hps than my minotaur and both characters took all empower spell feats.

Are you crazy??? Warders with Guardians??? Cobar with Takhisis???

I admit I am not the best pker. I dont actively look for it.  I will raid, and reraid.  And I will fight back if attacked. Likely more due to my own personality than Solace, but I tend to see my characters as a defensive supporting character rather than an attacker. 

But, I do like the idea of having the arena back.  Perhaps set it up for those less than lvl 15 (or some appropriate level where players would have slightly more advanced skills)  where they can fight others and not lose anything (no con or gear, but perhaps a gold bet), but learn the fight and how to survive.  Make it a no-loss duel zone, so to speak. 

I think this could help those new to Solace learn more about the races and classes without loss.  It would also get players into the mindset of pk, so when lvl 10 is reached, they already know what it is like to see your character getting attacked by another.  No shock.  Too often now, you get to lvl 10 and then bam, you are dead from another player.  To reduce the shock, perhaps an arena could lessen the blow and get people into the pk mindset.

The arena could be set up as a diverse place, all types of terrain to suit the different races and classes.

I am not in favor of reducing the looting or adjusting other elements of Solace.  I too recall the old Solace of worse items, no feats, less about saves, and more player base and more pk.  I think we need a change in mindset about pk (the arena idea and other ideas) rather than more limiting code. 

As you notice Kiri, many of the changes previously provided in other posts likely just impact when people quit (sooner). I think we need to "retrain" players that this mud is about pk.  And I include myself in that group.

If your getting killed at level 10, your doing something wrong... Time to make a new character and keep making new ones until you don't get killed at level 10!

Argonar

forest dwellers helped Solamnia and forces of light, is nt it?

cobars is crazy enough to stand at dark side :)

Agreed dehuchka...
Let's make total war...

Just return Arena?

the more changes to make your life in solace easier - the more whinners (c)

Dehucka is right. 9 out of 10 times if you ask a player is he going to hunt someone they will tell you no, im not ready to fight. Unless that person is attacked by someone who fails they feel their character is no yet adequately mastered/equip'd to be fighting because they want to be as close to 100% kill or survival as possible. Rewards for fighting other players isn't a bad way to go if it is your wish to promote fighting with other players...

I had an idea sometime ago to replace most manuals... player must slay a certain class or even race, xx many times to obtain the knowledge to learn a certain 'superior skill' which we now have in manuals. I also thought perhaps its a good idea to add some skills classes already have without need of manuals to this.

You could even remove -con on death and instead have your current amount gained toward each one reduced a little instead, making it harder to reach them which would add more fear of death than con loss i think...

Fights are quick, so a failed spell or skill will seal your fate. So you dont want to start a fight being unprepared.

Arena is a paradise for newbies, losers and whiner. Why don't you want to return it?

- Im all for it...been brought up two or three times by myself alone.  Some sort of implementation to aid pk issues.  More skill in pk..maybe less fear of it?
http://solace.i-read-you.ru/forum/index.php/topic,3611.msg20128.html#msg20128

- Also eliminate the choice of looting from the victorious...force a random looting of x-items equipped and/or inventory, gold.  This would maybe stop some whining since its not the choice of the killer and forces nice people to loot sometimes too.  Course they can always give it back I suppose.
       Though Im no master pk'er or master looter :) Getting looted can stimulate the revenge trait and help pk too,  when I get looted I get pissed and try to get my stuff back... Full looting isnt too bad if you can get revenge on the one who looted you, but most times your stuff is OOC'd to 5 other characters before your ghost ends...

- Possibly benefits or bonuses for individual pk

1) This is bad and abuseable but could lead to better idea. Engaging in pk is the only way to improve battle skills/spells to 100%.  Lets say from typical boring cat or bat mastering everyone loves, you can only attain 95% in skills.  Why does swinging at a  lvl 5 bat or cat  make me a master of a weapon or parrying when Im lvl 25 or worse 35?

2) Slaying someone in pk gives you an x amount of time random buff .

3) Slaying more and more in a row without a personal death between gives temporary title (slayer,maimer, etc).  And such title promotes hunting this person to take it perhaps.

4) Permanent pk titles...this also keeps it more rp friendly then a chart.  At certain pk totals you gain a title that can be chosen from a pool of cool titles perhaps by class(though sometimes you might not want to disclose your class). 
"Knucklehead the Valiant"  (knight with 5 confirmed kills)
"Dumbass the Reaver of Souls" (outcast with 10 confirmed kills)
Characters with titles are loved more by thier owners.

5) Slaying in pk can perhaps randomly return lost constitution to victor (but not above normal max)..so to stay alive you must kill, kill, kill

6) After so many hours of non-pk..you gain a negative title.  You know people will hunt these for the fun of it.
"Knucklehead the wimpy" (not sure maybe 500 in game hours of no pk)
"Dumbass the cowardly"

Such titles may be recieved in Arena of Coleseum.
Several secceful gladiators fights on arena with different people gives you a title or a tattoo.
Lets return Arena back :)

Keep in mind that we wish to better PK, without destroying RP... things like gaining back CON hen you kill will not lead to a good direction I feel.

Kage - highfice, realy nice ideas.

balanced and interesting.

Greetings,
I have an idea to make pk more attractive.
Let players gain fame for pk's, depending on their level and opponents rank. This fame
splits between the players if you kill someone 2vs1, 3vs1 etc.
Define titles for the players before their names like Rank1:Sir, Rank2:Baron, Rank3:Lord etc.
Let players gain benefits depending on their title like some amount of hp, %1 resist to all,
+1,2 save for their each rank(or title) etc.
Fame scales according to your opponent's fame.

Regards.

PK is already attractive :)
The problem is - too much ppl quit when they simply see enemy.

Point is... PK is attractive to who knows he can win.
And who uses PWquit uses it with such skill because he knows he will lose.
(No matter what circumstance.)
Giving titles to the ones that win won't make PK more attractive to the
ones afraid of death and loot.
Also... I think honestly that a gang 2 or 3 vs 1 should not give fame if this were even to exist... It should make someone infamous (negative fame). But this is just a comment, since I didn't like the fame idea much anyway...  ;D

So here's question. Everyone is talking about ways to get people to stop quitting when they know they wil lose, but what about when it's really the best option for someone. When you have 2,3,4,5...yes it's possible, people chasing after you then sometimes quitting is really the only option. This is one of the largest problems with Solace in my opinion. If your strong, and/or you have allies then your enemies not only won't fight you, but they won't play at same time you will. I think it's things like this that keep our online numbers so low.

Anyone have ideas on what to do when your facing 3-5 enemies besides quit?

Pray to the Lords and Ladies and ask for help!!!  ;D
It might just come!
I remember once that Argonar had to face three Heretics to reraid. I summoned a fire elementel that suddenly started up giving fireballs like I've never seen!!  ;)

Looted items could only be for the person who loots. If transfered or given away, they disappear. Charmed to only the one who loots.  ;D

Rewards for pk will not really work. Characters here are disposable, Person 1 pks alot, gets lots of rewards, stomps person 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. Person 2, 3, 4, 5 etc quits when they see Person 1 evermore. Person one gets bored and makes a new character. Or Person 1 gets his 100% unlimited equipment 100% looted wonders why bothers playing in a game full of jerks and quits playing for a month. Or naked person 1  gets teamed in the city by two imbeciles totally out of RP wonders the same thing and quits playing for a month etc etc.

Returning the power to the character instead of equipment will bring back pk. The problem with this is there is now so much equipment, person 1 will collect lots of extra bonus's so that his character is that much stronger than others.

Personally i would like to fight all the time but i have to spend time collecting the equipment to compete, play a necro or die miserably. Even though alot of equipment was revamped its still a bit hard to get some sometimes. This is because everyone has 10 multi's each covered in mid range equipment and not enough reboots...

Also some characters are able to become so much stronger than others so easily (and theres always some loser playing one.) that no one can compete one on one. I think most peoples pockets are too big, warriors need more, everyone else less.

There are so many things that could fix it one could talk about it forever....

PS. Also introduce items on ground decaying after a time, as it is they will sit forever until a reboot. Books too.

Or make a specific PK areas only (enter at your own risk) where there just may be special shinies (limited time shinies) but also where you revert to your natural abilities, skills, strengths according to your race, profession etc.

Rewarding those who DO pk is quiet unbalanced and unfair I guess. For not everyone likes to PK. Maybe some of us just like the adventures, the companionship in adventures, the RP and other less "manly" outbursts of a game?  ;D