Assassins and Disarming

[Sir Solan]

Well, it's been mentioned a lot that disarm on assassins is somewhat wierd if they can't disarm while unarmed...

I propose a sort of compromise.  A sort of unarmed disarm.  Let's call it "grapple" for this post, though I've no idea if it would be implemented under that name, if it is at all

Basically, I think it should work like disarm, as long as you're unarmed.  Maybe it should only work while you have both hands free (no shield/hold item).  You attempt to disarm your foe by grabbing their weapon and hurling it away.
The drawback to this tactic would be that, successful or not, you should take some damage from grabbing onto your opponent's weapon.  I'd say this is mostly based on the strength of the weapon itself, and only slightly on the strength of your foe (since they can't move their weapon much while you're grabbing it).  As an alternative to always damage, it could be 3 possibilities.
1. Successfully grapple, damage taken.
2. Failed grapple, damage taken.
3. Missed grapple, no damage.

Any thoughts?

[Werewolf]

Well, I tried in real life fighting unarmed against opponents wielding sword, spear and pole. My observations are as follows:

You almost cannot disarm your opponent when he is in defencive stance. With a sword it means he stands back aiming the sword at you and not letting you to come any closer. You cannot hope to pull the sword out of him grabbing the blade, since he can just step back and draw it to himself, slicing your palm away meanwhile. By the way, losing limbs in battle would be funny to be implemented ;-))

The attempts to disarm staves and spears are safer since they don't have a sharp edge, but a skilled defensive fighter won't let you to do it anyway: the speed and width of moves with spears and staves are beyond bare hands' abilities.

When the opponent goes offensive, using wide-arc slashes and overhead strikes, you can get close to him at the moment of preparation to strike and grab his arms, not the weapon. Of course, you have to be swift and hope he'll be slower, otherwise you get the full-power undodgeable blow. But if you succeded in penetrating enemy's defences, the disarm is almost sure thing. You use your two hands to twist enemy's limbs as you want, and he cannot protect himself as his weapon is away and his hands are tied with it. He may try to kick you though in some painful place ;-))

[Werewolf]

The last one is a role model for kender assassins I believe ;-)))

[Sir Solan]

Good points werewolf, but...
We're looking at assassins, or possibly hand-to-hand spec fighters as well.  They train for years and years and years to perfect their hand to hand combat.  If they can block a blow completely with their hands (hand block, ironically), that means they've got some more durability there, I think, or at least proper angling.  If they can punch through platemail or a dragon's scales, I think they're a bit more proficient with it than us common folk
I'm not saying those weren't good arguements, but remember that these are professionals trained to fight and kill with their hands, and to win over armed opponents with them, so they have some advantage.

[Werewolf]

I do not object, assassins are people who dedicated all their life to the art of unarmed combat. They can develop almost innatural dexterity and strength in it. And it is just a game, in doesn't have to be as natural in details as real life.

I take into account 3 points of view: some 'real life assassins' abilities as prototypes, their modifications due to the nature of fantasy world of Krynn, and (the last but not the least, rather most important) game balance.

First point was already considered. Perfectly trained assassins could even softly block the blades  with bare hands and not get harmed. Hitting painfully through platemail is not so difficult, have you tried getting an unblocked blow at your head being in helmet? It hurts, especially if it was a leg  Maybe if they are SO skilled, they can turn their palms into steel and grasp sharp blades easily.

But. In order to disarm the opponent fast, a fighter must use whips or flails, and thus significantly lower his defences. If the chance of bare-hands disarm will be as low as with defensive weapons, it won't change much, and everyone would be happy.

[Sir Solan]

I agree, chance should be roughly equal to disarming with a normal weapon (maybe -slightly- higher if they can't have a shield and disarm), definitely not the same as strip weapon, etc.

[Quino]

Definitely should be able to disarm!

Many unarmed creatures (trolls, for example) can disarm you.